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HTML 4.01 Strict & the Target attribute

 
 
Simon
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      10-29-2004
Hi there.

Can anyone tell me how I open a page in a new window without using the
Target attribute or Javascript?

It's probably obvious, but I havn't located any references to it!

TIA

Simon


 
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Steve Pugh
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      10-29-2004
On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 12:05:13 GMT, Simon <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:

> Can anyone tell me how I open a page in a new window without using the
> Target attribute or Javascript?


As an author you can't.
Either use JS (making sure that the link still works when JS is disabled)
or use a Transitional doctype and the target attribute. In both cases make
sure that you indicate to the user that the link will open a new window.

As a user your browser probably offers you at least one way of opening a
link in a new window. These are always available to you and give you the
option of opening links in a new window or tab if you choose. If the
author has inconsiderately decided to force a new window on you then it's
a lot more difficult to choose to open the link in your existing window.

Steve



 
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rf
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      10-29-2004
Simon wrote

> Hi there.


Er, G'day.

> Can anyone tell me how I open a page in a new window without using the
> Target attribute or Javascript?


You can not. That is why the target attribute is not in strict. We don't
want new windows opened at us.

--
Cheers
Richard.


 
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Eric B. Bednarz
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      10-29-2004
"Simon" <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:

> Can anyone tell me how I open a page in a new window without using the
> Target attribute or Javascript?


File > Open in New Window

> It's probably obvious,


That's bloody right.


--
| ) PiĆ¹ Cabernet,
-( meno Internet.
| ) http://bednarz.nl/
 
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Simon
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      10-29-2004
"rf" <rf@.invalid> wrote in > Simon wrote

> You can not. That is why the target attribute is not in strict. We don't
> want new windows opened at us.


I should have mentioned that I agree about new windows should not be opened
without permission. This was going to be on an image link next to the main
link to give the user the option.

I know that all us [power] users can shift+click or right click and open in
new etc , but your avergae man/woman/child in the street does not know of
these things.

anyway, becoming a bit of pragmatist in my old age, so I shall leave the
target attribute on the link, seeing as how it does work.

Cheers anyway

Si


 
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rf
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      10-29-2004
Simon wrote
> "rf" <rf@.invalid> wrote in > Simon wrote
>
> > You can not. That is why the target attribute is not in strict. We don't
> > want new windows opened at us.

>
> I should have mentioned that I agree about new windows should not be

opened
> without permission. This was going to be on an image link next to the main
> link to give the user the option.


The option to what? I assume the option to open a new window as against the
main link which opens it in the main page?

Yes you really should have mentioned that up front. You might have recieved
a totally different answer.

> I know that all us [power] users can shift+click or right click and open

in
> new etc , but your avergae man/woman/child in the street does not know of
> these things.
>
> anyway, becoming a bit of pragmatist in my old age, so I shall leave the
> target attribute on the link, seeing as how it does work.


Whatever. It's your web site.

--
Cheers
Richard.


 
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Lauri Raittila
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      10-29-2004
Simon wrote;
> "rf" <rf@.invalid> wrote in > Simon wrote
>
> > You can not. That is why the target attribute is not in strict. We don't
> > want new windows opened at us.

>
> I should have mentioned that I agree about new windows should not be opened
> without permission.


Then why to do that?

> This was going to be on an image link next to the main
> link to give the user the option.


God, I especially hate those image galleries etc. that open their images
in new window.

> I know that all us [power] users can shift+click or right click and open in
> new etc , but your avergae man/woman/child in the street does not know of
> these things.


Avarage browseruser will get himself confused when you open new windows.

New windows are good for people that:
1) get the idea of multible windows
2) don't get that one can open them

It is must more likely that people know how to open a new window, than
them to understand what it is good for.


--
Lauri Raittila <http://www.iki.fi/lr> <http://www.iki.fi/zwak/fonts>
 
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Simon
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      10-29-2004
Lauri Raittila" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote

> > > You can not. That is why the target attribute is not in strict. We

don't
> > > want new windows opened at us.

> >
> > I should have mentioned that I agree about new windows should not be

opened
> > without permission.

>
> Then why to do that?


Unfortunately, it's what the customer wants, I can only fight against new
windows upto a point, thats why the compromise of a small image link to open
in new window, similar to that used in Yahoo search results.

I can't turn a large project down because I disagree with certain
requirements, unless building websites is a hobby rather than a wage.

Usability is always my prime concern, usually not the customers though.


> > This was going to be on an image link next to the main
> > link to give the user the option.

>
> God, I especially hate those image galleries etc. that open their images
> in new window.


Just a standard website with outbound links of relevance

> > I know that all us [power] users can shift+click or right click and open

in
> > new etc , but your avergae man/woman/child in the street does not know

of
> > these things.

>
> Avarage browseruser will get himself confused when you open new windows.
>
> New windows are good for people that:
> 1) get the idea of multible windows
> 2) don't get that one can open them
>
> It is must more likely that people know how to open a new window, than
> them to understand what it is good for.


I Agree completely, customer doesn't though

Si


 
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Lauri Raittila
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      10-29-2004
Simon wrote;
> Lauri Raittila" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote
>
> Unfortunately, it's what the customer wants, I can only fight against new
> windows upto a point, thats why the compromise of a small image link to open
> in new window, similar to that used in Yahoo search results.
>
> I can't turn a large project down because I disagree with certain
> requirements, unless building websites is a hobby rather than a wage.


Maybe

> Usability is always my prime concern, usually not the customers though.


People pay even more money for experts that get good results. Those are
people that don't hesitate to say customer that he is wrong.

Unfortunately, it doesn't always work thatway.

> I Agree completely, customer doesn't though


Make a version with both, to show that you can easily do both, and then
tell to customer that he is wrong... Does sometimes work...

--
Lauri Raittila <http://www.iki.fi/lr> <http://www.iki.fi/zwak/fonts>
 
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Neal
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      10-29-2004
On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 14:12:00 GMT, Simon <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:

> I can't turn a large project down because I disagree with certain
> requirements, unless building websites is a hobby rather than a wage.


Yes you can: in fact, you MUST.

> Usability is always my prime concern, usually not the customers though.


So if you were a lawyer, and a client brings you a case that you can't
easily win, and you need information to win that the client won't give
you, you're telling me you'll go in and bomb in the courtroom, damaging
your name as an attorney, instead of dropping the client who won't take
your professional advise?

If you were an electrician, and the client wants you to do something which
is expressly forbidden by the safety code, you'd do it anyway, risking
your license and perhaps the client's building?

It's your responsibility to the client to stress your professional
opinion. And it's your responsibility to ethical and consciencious web
authors around the world to threaten to pull out unless realistic and
appropriate standards are agreed to for the project.

> Lauri Raittila" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote
>> New windows are good for people that:
>> 1) get the idea of multible windows
>> 2) don't get that one can open them
>>
>> It is must more likely that people know how to open a new window, than
>> them to understand what it is good for.

>
> I Agree completely, customer doesn't though


Then if you are a professional, you must convince them. The statement
above is a complete copout. Walk the talk, or stop talking.

If you're not a professional, and are instead a toady looking for a fast
buck wherever you can get it, and are willing to compromise best practice
just because some bigwig who knows nothing about what you do likes
something stupid, then your panties won't get in a bunch. I suspect that's
not you, though.

Remember the old story of the company president who had a machine break
down. No one in the company could fix it, so he hires a repairman. The
repairman looks at the machine for a minute, takes out a screwdriver,
turns one screw, and the machine finally works.

He hands his bill to the president - $100.

"$100! You expect me to pay you $100 for tightening one screw?"

"No, I expect $1 for tightening the screw. I expect the other $99 for
knowing which screw to turn."

This client is hiring you for your knowledge and abilities. If he's
expecting something that is poor practice, you either convince him it is
wrong or you drop him like a hot potato. And until most web designers do
this, the web design profession will be as underpaid and disrespected as
it is now.
 
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