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As I'm sure most of you do, I have a collection of browsers that I use for
testing my web pages. The problem is that, with new versions coming out
all the time, the collection can get unwieldy.

To date, my strategy to keep this under control has been to basically
ignore recent releases of Opera and the Mozilla family, on the assumption
that they are only getting better. If Moz1.0 can render the page properly,
then the chances are very good that anything newer will also do so. But
then when I find myself with an issue that occurs in, say, Moz1.0 and
Opera6.0, but not in IE6, Netscape6.2 or Opera7.2, I wonder if it's worth
the time to track it down.

One way of thinking is to assume that most people using Opera or Mozilla
derivatives are more computer-savvy, and will be upgrading regularly, so
that the user base of Moz1.0 and Opera6.0 will be very small now. But I
also know (from personal experience) that some people have one of these
browsers because someone knowledgeable installed them at one point but
hasn't gone back to update them since.

I'm going to keep very old versions of IE and Netscape around for a bit yet
(to check that pages degrade properly when handed minimal CSS). But should
I keep Opera7.2, install Opera7.5, or both? Ditto for Mozilla1.0/1.7,
Netscape 6.2/7.2, etc.

--
Greg Schmidt
Trawna Publications http://www.trawna.com/

In alt.html Greg Schmidt said:

> my strategy to keep this under control has been to basically
> ignore recent releases of Opera

opera users update their browser more frequently that other browser
users, they're also more intelligent, tech savvy, have better jobs and
higher incomes.

a much better customer to attract than the trailer trash IE users.

> If Moz1.0 can render the page properly, then the chances are very good
> that anything newer will also do so.

not so. renderings often change in newer versions where they fix bugs or
incorrect behavior etc.

--


v o i c e s

On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 05:59:54 +1000, brucie wrote:

> In alt.html Greg Schmidt said:
>
>> my strategy to keep this under control has been to basically
>> ignore recent releases of Opera
>
> opera users update their browser more frequently that other browser
> users

Is this anecdotal, or do you have references? Does the same not hold true
for the Mozilla family?

> they're also more intelligent, tech savvy, have better jobs and
> higher incomes.

Hmm, I sense that you are an Opera user.

> a much better customer to attract than the trailer trash IE users.

I guess that all depends on what you're trying to sell. I can think of
certain classes of product where trailer trash are the primary market...

>> If Moz1.0 can render the page properly, then the chances are very good
>> that anything newer will also do so.
>
> not so. renderings often change in newer versions where they fix bugs or
> incorrect behavior etc.

Yes, quite right. I was unclear. What I meant was that if there is a page
which is valid HTML and it renders as expected in Opera6, Opera7,
Netscape6, IE6, and Mozilla1.0, then the chances are very good that it
renders properly because the HTML and CSS are correct and handled correctly
by all of these browsers, and it is unlikely that a newer release
(excluding daily builds) of one of these browsers will introduce a change
that breaks the page. My assumption, of course, is that all of these
browsers won't share the same incorrect behaviour that happens to make the
page work.

--
Greg Schmidt
Trawna Publications http://www.trawna.com/

On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 15:36:22 -0400, Greg Schmidt wrote:

> As I'm sure most of you do, I have a collection of browsers that I use for
> testing my web pages. The problem is that, with new versions coming out
> all the time, the collection can get unwieldy.
<snip a bunch of stuff>

Personally, with all the problems in the past and problems that have
morphed in detail but yet persist in some form regarding JavaScript, CSS,
HTML, DOM, etc. layout and support and quirks and whatnot with different
browsers, I have tried to take the attitude that pixel-perfect identical
renderings on every browser is really not important. And, whats more, is
unachievable.

Thus, I do all my desinging and testing on Moz 1.x (which supports the
aforementioned web technologies quite well). Then, if I am doing
anything fancier than CSS color and fonts (especially CSS positioning), I
do a cursory check for okay-ness on MSIE 5 and 6, and a cursory check for
okayness in a text-only browser. And finally, I find out what browser the
client will be using and do a detailed inpection in that.

If the content is available (i.e. layout degrades happily) in lynx (or
links) and looks reasonably similar in Moz1.x and MSIE5 and 6, you're set.
But most important is just to make sure you have the browser your
client is going to be using.

No reason to test in anything other than Moz1, MSIE5,6, and a text-only
browser for degradationness.

Oh, yeah, and Opera sucks!**

--
Jeffrey D. Silverman |
Website | http://www.newtnotes.com

Drop "PANTS" to reply by email
































** Simple, unabashed, obvious troll. Do with it what you wish. I actually
think Opera is a pretty spankin' good browser.

In alt.html Greg Schmidt said:

>> opera users update their browser more frequently that other browser
>> users

> Is this anecdotal, or do you have references?

advertising blurb from opera so it must be true.

> Does the same not hold true for the Mozilla family?

my feeling is no but only because of the increased use by non tech users
who seem to install once (or get it installed) and forget about it for
10 years.


--


v o i c e s

Jeffrey Silverman <> wrote:

>Oh, yeah, and Opera sucks!**

But it sucks faster than the others.

--
Spartanicus

Greg Schmidt wrote:

> To date, my strategy to keep this under control has been to basically
> ignore recent releases of Opera and the Mozilla family, on the assumption
> that they are only getting better.

Ignoring Opera 7.x and using 6.x is just silly. Opera 7 has a completely
rewritten rendering engine (Presto). Any similarities between rendering on
6.x and 7.x are just coincidental.

Here is my browser testing list:
OS|Browser|Screen Res|Release Date|Rendering Eng|Importance|Machine
Linux (Mandrake 10.0)|Amaya (GTK) 7.0|1280x1024x24|2002|Other||ophelia
Windows NT 4 SP 6|Cello 1.01a|1024x768x24|1994|Other||polonius
Linux (Mandrake 10.0)|Dillo 0.8.0pre|1280x1024x24|2003|Other||ophelia
Linux (Mandrake 10.0)|ELinks 0.9.1|80x24x4|2003|Text||ophelia
Linux (Mandrake 10.0)|Epiphany 1.0.7|1280x1024x24|2003|Gecko||ophelia
Linux (Mandrake 10.0)|Galeon 1.3.12|1280x1024x24|2003|Gecko||ophelia
Windows NT 4 SP 6|HotJava 3.0|1024x768x24|1999|Other||polonius
Windows NT 4 SP 1|Internet Explorer 2.0|640x320x8|1995|Trident||polonius
Windows NT 4 SP 1|Internet Explorer 3.02|640x320x8|1996|Trident||polonius
Windows NT 4 SP 3|Internet Explorer 4.01|800x600x24|1997|Trident||polonius
Windows NT 4 SP 6|Internet Explorer 5.01|800x600x24|1998|Trident|key|polonius
Windows NT 4 SP 6|Internet Explorer 5.5|800x600x24|2000|Trident|key|polonius
Windows NT 4 SP 6|Internet Explorer 6.0|1024x768x24|2001|Trident|key|polonius
Linux (Mandrake 9.2)|Konqueror 3.1.4|1024x768x24|2003|KHTML|key|polonius
Linux (Mandrake 10.0)|Links 2.1pre13|80x24x4|2003|Text||ophelia
Linux (Mandrake 10.0)|Lynx 2.8.5|80x24x4|2004|Text|key|ophelia
Windows NT 4 SP 6|Mosaic 0.6 Beta|1024x768x24|1992|Mosaic||polonius
Windows NT 4 SP 6|Mosaic 1.0|1024x768x24|1993|Mosaic||polonius
Windows NT 4 SP 6|Mosaic 2.1.1|1024x768x24|1996|Mosaic||polonius
Windows NT 4 SP 6|Mosaic 3.0|1024x768x24|1997|Mosaic||polonius
Windows NT 4 SP 6|Mozilla 1.0.2|1024x768x24|2002|Gecko||polonius
Linux (Mandrake 9.2)|Mozilla 1.4|1024x768x24|2003|Gecko|key|polonius
Linux (Mandrake 10.0)|Mozilla 1.6|1280x1024x24|2004|Gecko||ophelia
Linux (Mandrake 10.0)|Mozilla Firebird 0.6.1|1280x1024x24|2003|Gecko||ophelia
Windows NT 4 SP 6|Mozilla Firefox 0.8|1024x768x24|2004|Gecko||polonius
Windows NT 4 SP 6|Mozilla Firefox 0.9.1|1024x768x24|2004|Gecko||polonius
Linux (Mandrake 10.0)|Nautilus 2.4.2|1280x1024x24|2003|GtkHTML||ophelia
Windows NT 4 SP 6|Netscape 1.1|1024x768x24|1995|Mosaic||polonius
Windows NT 4 SP 6|Netscape 2.02|1024x768x24|1996|Mosaic||polonius
Windows NT 4 SP 6|Netscape 3.04 Gold|1024x768x24|1996|Mosaic||polonius
Windows NT 4 SP 6|Netscape 4.08|1024x768x24|1999|Mosaic|key|polonius
Linux (Mandrake 10.0)|Netscape 4.8|1280x1024x24|2002|Mosaic||ophelia
Windows NT 4 SP 6|Netscape 4.8|1024x768x24|2002|Mosaic||polonius
Windows NT 4 SP 6|Netscape 6.23|1024x768x24|2002|Gecko||polonius
Windows NT 4 SP 6|Netscape 7.1|1024x768x24|2003|Gecko||polonius
Windows NT 4 SP 6|OffByOne 3.4.a|1024x768x24|2002|Other||polonius
Windows NT 4 SP 6|Opera 2.12|1024x768x24|1997|Opera||polonius
Windows NT 4 SP 6|Opera 3.62|1024x768x24|1999|Opera||polonius
Windows NT 4 SP 6|Opera 5.12|1024x768x24|2000|Opera||polonius
Windows NT 4 SP 6|Opera 6.06|1024x768x24|2001|Opera||polonius
Windows NT 4 SP 6|Opera 7.03|1024x768x24|2003|Presto|key|polonius
Linux (Mandrake 9.2)|Opera 7.23|1024x768x24|2003|Presto||polonius
Linux (Mandrake 10.0)|Opera 7.53|1280x1024x24|2004|Presto||ophelia
Windows NT 4 SP 6|UdiWWW 1.2.000|1024x768x24|1996|Other||polonius
Linux (Mandrake 10.0)|w3m 0.4.2|80x24x4|2003|Text||ophelia
Windows NT 4 SP 6|WebTV Viewer 2.8|1024x768x24|2003|Other||polonius

--
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
Contact Me ~ http://tobyinkster.co.uk/contact

In message <grg5mbf8y392$.>, brucie
<****@usenetshit.info> writes
>In alt.html Greg Schmidt said:
>
>> my strategy to keep this under control has been to basically
>> ignore recent releases of Opera
>
>opera users update their browser more frequently that other browser
>users, they're also more intelligent, tech savvy, have better jobs and
>higher incomes.

What ........ both of them?
>
>a much better customer to attract than the trailer trash IE users.
>
........ but there's more of us.

[snip]

--
Jake

Spartanicus wrote:

> Jeffrey Silverman <> wrote:
>
>>Oh, yeah, and Opera sucks!**
>
> But it sucks faster than the others.

And in a more standards-compliant way.

All browsers suck. Opera just sucks less. (With apologies to Michael R.
Elkins.)

--
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
Contact Me ~ http://tobyinkster.co.uk/contact

On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 08:12:22 +0100, Toby Inkster wrote:

> Greg Schmidt wrote:
>
>> To date, my strategy to keep this under control has been to basically
>> ignore recent releases of Opera and the Mozilla family, on the assumption
>> that they are only getting better.
>
> Ignoring Opera 7.x and using 6.x is just silly. Opera 7 has a completely
> rewritten rendering engine (Presto). Any similarities between rendering on
> 6.x and 7.x are just coincidental.

I did say that I have 7.2 installed as well as 6.0, and use both to test
regularly. I was speaking more of ignoring 7.5 in favour of 7.2 than
ignoring 7.x in favour of 6.x.

> Here is my browser testing list:

[ list of 45 browsers snipped ]

And I thought I was doing pretty well testing in 12. I do think you need
to get yourself a Mac, you should be able to add another dozen or so...

--
Greg Schmidt
Trawna Publications http://www.trawna.com/