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External style-sheet for disabled people.

 
 
Luigi Donatello Asero
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Posts: n/a
 
      06-27-2004
What is an external style-sheet for disabled people? What am I supposed to
write there.
I found that
"Example of source code: <link rel=stylesheet type="text / css"
href="section508.css>"

http://www.access-board.gov/sec508/guide/1194.22.htm#(c)

--
Luigi ( un italiano che vive in Svezia)
http://www.italymap.dk/sv/italien-karta.html
http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/sv/rimini.html



 
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Andy Dingley
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Posts: n/a
 
      06-28-2004
"Luigi Donatello Asero" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message news:<MKCDc.3767$(E-Mail Removed)>...
> What is an external style-sheet for disabled people?


No such thing - and this is a rather vague and sloppy way of wording
things, so it's hard to see what's really being discussed here.

For one thing, there are no "disabled" people. There are people with
disabilities, but you can't lump them all together into one pot lile
this. Good accessibility for a blind user doesn't make the same
demands that accessibility for a poorly-sighted person might do, let
alone someone with motor control problems or autism. A totally blind
user might be using a screen reader and that benefits from some
additional descriptive markup, the partially sighted reader might be
able to read text for themself, so long as they can enlarge it
sufficiently and still get a reasonable scroll order. Fortunately
there are design techniques that help to meet all of these constraints
simultaneously - it's rare that improving accessibility for one group
would reduce it for others.

CSS is no guarantee of accessibility, and it's not even much help to
achieving it. What is useful is the "CSS mindset" when applied to
design. You can't achieve accessibility just by using <link
media="disabled" ... /> and a magic stylesheet that makes the page
accessible. And if you could do so, why wouldn't you serve that to all
users ? For presentation stylesheets, there _is_ a problem that making
it accessible for one group might make it worse for another. Although
individual users might be able to meet their needs by applying a user
stylesheet, we (as page designers) can't do this for them because we
don't know just what their needs are. There is no single group of
"disabled" people.

"CSS techniques" allow us a couple of useful avenues for accessible
design though. Mainly they separate content and presentation, so the
ability to easily offer a content-only version of the page can itself
be helpful. The most accessible page is often not the one with special
"disabled styling", but the one with all styling and CSS turned _off_.
This either simplifies things, or it allows the user to apply their
own styling - it's their disability, they're the best judge of it, and
they often understand best how styling can help. Maybe it's as simple
as mapping all red or green colours to different brightnesses, so as
to overcome red/green colour blindness.

The core of good CSS design is to strip presentation out of the
content, and to leve behind content that is still usable without any
CSS. Think about document order, getting the sections in a meaningful
sequence. Imagine using the page as a single long line of ticker-tape
and having to scroll back and forth through it - how easy is this ?
Can internal jump menus within the page help ?

Then there's the annotation aspect of usability. Use title attributes
generously (I hope I don't have to describe alt usage again !). Wrap
related items in <div>s and give the <div> a relevant title. Even
though you might not want this as a heading, it can help with
navigation around the page. You may even wish to use a "breadcrumb"
approach for the content of these titles. Get your spelling right too,
for most screen readers can pronounce their dictionary words better
than mis-spellings.

General design stuff: Put things on the page because they're useful,
not otherwise. Enough of the animated .gif eye-candy, the Flash
banners, the JS-only menus. You don't _need_ this stuff, it causes
problems, so don't do it.

Maybe you do need some complex Java applet client-side data browser
(sometimes these problems are just hard and their solutions are
complex). Then build an alternative if you have to, and you can't make
the mainstream route accesssible itself.

When it finally comes to CSS, the techniques are generally better
known. Use text size units that are easily user-scalable. Allow for
fluid layout on devices with unusual window sizes. All that good
stuff.


> "Example of source code: <link rel=stylesheet type="text / css"
> href="section508.css>"


I cannot imagine any scenario (suggestions welcome!) where
"section508.css" is either a sensible intention for a CSS stylesheet,
or a sensible name for a generalised CSS stylesheet. Don't segregate
accessibility like this - build it into your mainstream styling.


> http://www.access-board.gov/sec508/guide/1194.22.htm#(c)


Incidentally, I'd regard that as a poor page-usability wise.
 
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SpaceGirl
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Posts: n/a
 
      06-28-2004
<snip superb reply>

> Incidentally, I'd regard that as a poor page-usability wise.


Perfect. People need to *think* once in a while, instead of just jumping
on yet another bandwagon.


--


x theSpaceGirl (miranda)

# lead designer @ http://www.dhnewmedia.com #
# remove NO SPAM to email, or use form on website #
 
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rf
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Posts: n/a
 
      06-28-2004

"Andy Dingley" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed) om...
> "Luigi Donatello Asero" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message

news:<MKCDc.3767$(E-Mail Removed)>...

> > http://www.access-board.gov/sec508/guide/1194.22.htm#(c)

>
> Incidentally, I'd regard that as a poor page-usability wise.


That page tells other people how to do things. That does not mean the the
page should do those things itself. It is, after all, a page produced by a
government

--
Cheers
Richard.


 
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Els
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Posts: n/a
 
      06-28-2004
rf wrote:

>> > http://www.access-board.gov/sec508/guide/1194.22.htm#(c)

>>
>> Incidentally, I'd regard that as a poor page-usability
>> wise.

>
> That page tells other people how to do things. That does
> not mean the the page should do those things itself. It is,
> after all, a page produced by a government


<g>

--
Els http://locusmeus.com/
Sonhos vem. Sonhos vo. O resto imperfeito.
- Renato Russo -
Now playing: D:A - Bad Craziness
 
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Luigi Donatello Asero
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      06-28-2004

"Andy Dingley" <(E-Mail Removed)> skrev i meddelandet
news:(E-Mail Removed) om...
> "Luigi Donatello Asero" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message

news:<MKCDc.3767$(E-Mail Removed)>...
> > What is an external style-sheet for disabled people?

>
> No such thing - and this is a rather vague and sloppy way of wording
> things, so it's hard to see what's really being discussed here.
>
> For one thing, there are no "disabled" people. There are people with
> disabilities, but you can't lump them all together into one pot lile
> this. Good accessibility for a blind user doesn't make the same
> demands that accessibility for a poorly-sighted person might do, let
> alone someone with motor control problems or autism. A totally blind
> user might be using a screen reader and that benefits from some
> additional descriptive markup, the partially sighted reader might be
> able to read text for themself, so long as they can enlarge it
> sufficiently and still get a reasonable scroll order. Fortunately
> there are design techniques that help to meet all of these constraints
> simultaneously - it's rare that improving accessibility for one group
> would reduce it for others.
>
> CSS is no guarantee of accessibility, and it's not even much help to
> achieving it. What is useful is the "CSS mindset" when applied to
> design. You can't achieve accessibility just by using <link
> media="disabled" ... /> and a magic stylesheet that makes the page
> accessible. And if you could do so, why wouldn't you serve that to all
> users ? For presentation stylesheets, there _is_ a problem that making
> it accessible for one group might make it worse for another. Although
> individual users might be able to meet their needs by applying a user
> stylesheet, we (as page designers) can't do this for them because we
> don't know just what their needs are. There is no single group of
> "disabled" people.
>
> "CSS techniques" allow us a couple of useful avenues for accessible
> design though. Mainly they separate content and presentation, so the
> ability to easily offer a content-only version of the page can itself
> be helpful. The most accessible page is often not the one with special
> "disabled styling", but the one with all styling and CSS turned _off_.
> This either simplifies things, or it allows the user to apply their
> own styling - it's their disability, they're the best judge of it, and
> they often understand best how styling can help. Maybe it's as simple
> as mapping all red or green colours to different brightnesses, so as
> to overcome red/green colour blindness.
>
> The core of good CSS design is to strip presentation out of the
> content, and to leve behind content that is still usable without any
> CSS. Think about document order, getting the sections in a meaningful
> sequence. Imagine using the page as a single long line of ticker-tape
> and having to scroll back and forth through it - how easy is this ?
> Can internal jump menus within the page help ?
>
> Then there's the annotation aspect of usability. Use title attributes
> generously (I hope I don't have to describe alt usage again !). Wrap
> related items in <div>s and give the <div> a relevant title. Even
> though you might not want this as a heading, it can help with
> navigation around the page. You may even wish to use a "breadcrumb"
> approach for the content of these titles. Get your spelling right too,
> for most screen readers can pronounce their dictionary words better
> than mis-spellings.
>
> General design stuff: Put things on the page because they're useful,
> not otherwise. Enough of the animated .gif eye-candy, the Flash
> banners, the JS-only menus. You don't _need_ this stuff, it causes
> problems, so don't do it.
>
> Maybe you do need some complex Java applet client-side data browser
> (sometimes these problems are just hard and their solutions are
> complex). Then build an alternative if you have to, and you can't make
> the mainstream route accesssible itself.
>
> When it finally comes to CSS, the techniques are generally better
> known. Use text size units that are easily user-scalable. Allow for
> fluid layout on devices with unusual window sizes. All that good
> stuff.
>
>
> > "Example of source code: <link rel=stylesheet type="text / css"
> > href="section508.css>"

>
> I cannot imagine any scenario (suggestions welcome!) where
> "section508.css" is either a sensible intention for a CSS stylesheet,
> or a sensible name for a generalised CSS stylesheet. Don't segregate
> accessibility like this - build it into your mainstream styling.
>
>
> > http://www.access-board.gov/sec508/guide/1194.22.htm#(c)

>
> Incidentally, I'd regard that as a poor page-usability wise.

Did you read the content of that page?
--
Luigi ( un italiano che vive in Svezia)
http://www.italymap.dk/sv/italien-karta.html
http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/sv/marciana.html




 
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Neal
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      06-28-2004
On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 10:46:48 GMT, rf <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>
> "Andy Dingley" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:(E-Mail Removed) om...
>> "Luigi Donatello Asero" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message

> news:<MKCDc.3767$(E-Mail Removed)>...
>
>> > http://www.access-board.gov/sec508/guide/1194.22.htm#(c)

>>
>> Incidentally, I'd regard that as a poor page-usability wise.

>
> That page tells other people how to do things. That does not mean the the
> page should do those things itself. It is, after all, a page produced by
> a
> government
>



It's like taking fitness advice from a fat guy.

 
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Matthias Gutfeldt
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Posts: n/a
 
      06-28-2004
Neal wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 10:46:48 GMT, rf <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>>
>> "Andy Dingley" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>> news:(E-Mail Removed) om...
>>
>>> "Luigi Donatello Asero" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message

>>
>> news:<MKCDc.3767$(E-Mail Removed)>...
>>
>>> > http://www.access-board.gov/sec508/guide/1194.22.htm#(c)
>>>
>>> Incidentally, I'd regard that as a poor page-usability wise.

>>
>>
>> That page tells other people how to do things. That does not mean the the
>> page should do those things itself. It is, after all, a page produced
>> by a
>> government
>>

>
>
> It's like taking fitness advice from a fat guy.


That's like not taking heart surgery unless the surgeon has a heart
defect himself.


Matthias

 
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Neal
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      06-28-2004
On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 16:41:09 +0200, Matthias Gutfeldt
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> Neal wrote:
>>
>> It's like taking fitness advice from a fat guy.

>
> That's like not taking heart surgery unless the surgeon has a heart
> defect himself.
>
>
> Matthias
>



Well, how about refusing a heart surgeon because he doesn't have a heart?

People do argue that priests are not qualified to counsel married couples,
as they're not allowed to marry themselves.

But still, my point is that if someone is giving advice, even totally
sound advice, it's hard to believe the individual knows what they're
talking about if they themselves aren't doing it. A site teaching graphic
design should have good graphic design. An HTML tutorial should have sound
HTML. A website detailing accessibility should be accessible.

Example - I accompanied my girlfriend (who danced for 20 years and was a
dance instructor until a few years ago) to a mutual friend's daughter's
dance recital. There were three "teacher" dances in the recital. I'm no
dancer, but I didn't think they were all that impressive dancers as
teachers. But my gf, being a little more knowledgeable about these things,
pointed out that the teacher dance is a perfect way to show parents, "This
is why your son/daughter should study in this studio." They failed at that
- the dance wasn't either technically showy or particularly visually
interesting - and as a result of that (and other factors, likely), this
studio's enrollment happens to be going down.

In a nutshell, "practice what you preach."
 
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Andy Dingley
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Posts: n/a
 
      06-28-2004
"rf" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message news:<sGSDc.68711$(E-Mail Removed)>...

> That page tells other people how to do things. That does not mean the the
> page should do those things itself.


This is perhaps allowable (the "Nielsen Defence"). However it ought to
refer to at least one example of "best practice", and there's no
reason why this couldn't be the page itself. Directives that some
requirement must be met, without assistance to do so, help no-one.

And IMHO, the Nielsen Defence is entirely bogus.
 
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