«

I am currently working on a Project Journaling Tool which uses a relational
database structure. Naturally the information in the different tables are
used to populate forms for the project journal and the journal's admin
screens.

For instance, to add a note to the journal:

1) User selects the "client" about whom they're making the entry


2) Upon selecting the "Client", we want to narrow down the "Project" list to
only include projects for that client.

3) Upon selecting the "Project", we want to narrow down the "Activity" list
to only include activities for that project.

4) THEN, we can populate the "Budgeted Hours" and "Remaining Hours" fields.

5) Then they add comments, submit the form, etc.




So, my challenge is in creating the dropdowns in the form so that they work
as I've described above, yet keep the whole thing accessible. I could do
this in 5 minutes with JavaScript, or simply refresh the page with
"onChange" to populate those fields.



Either approach is an accessibility issue. Since the site is for a
government agency, we're required by law to adhere to Section 508
guidelines.



Normally, my preferred idea would be to refresh the page with an "onChange"
event handler as the user progresses through the form. I view this as a
lesser-of-two-evils approach to handling the winnowing of options in those
other elements as opposed to actually (re)writing the dropdowns to the page
using javascript. However, this still does not address the "usability for
persons with disabilities" concern of the potential for a complete lack of
support for client-side scripting.



With my approach of using "onChange" to refresh the page, there's the issue
of the form being *completely* unusable for someone whose user-agent doesn't
support scripting. At best, users of screenreaders would be subjected to
listening to the whole page being re-read to them until they were back to
where when the page refreshed. I could set focus on reload to the next
field, which could minimize this problem, but all-in-all I don't see any way
past this issue without some sort of accessibility problem.



The Section 508 guidelines do not specifically mention anything about
refreshing pages, except for "When a timed response is required, the user
shall be alerted and given sufficient time to indicate more time is
required." I don't really view this as applicable, because they'd have all
the time in the world to interact with the form(s). The issue purely
revolves around the fact that the page would be refreshing and that, IMO, is
no different than following a link somewhere. The "usability for persons
with disabilities" issue there is the unexpected change.



Any ideas?



-Karl

On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 12:52:07 -0400, Karl Groves <>
wrote:

[snip - form fret fandango]

> Any ideas?

What percentage of your target audience has javascript disabled? What
percentage use text-to-speech? In many cases there *is* such a thing as
"acceptable losses".

Grey

--
The technical axiom that nothing is impossible sinisterly implies the
pitfall corollary that nothing is ridiculous.
- http://www.greywyvern.com/webslavent.php?msg=53 - Support the Opera
Puffin Mascot Campaign!

"GreyWyvern" <> skrev i meddelandet
news...
> On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 12:52:07 -0400, Karl Groves <>
> wrote:
>
> [snip - form fret fandango]
>
> > Any ideas?
>
> What percentage of your target audience has javascript disabled? What
> percentage use text-to-speech? In many cases there *is* such a thing as
> "acceptable losses".
>
> Grey
>
> --
If you do not have javascript disabled you might get virus don´t you?
http://www.corriere.it/Primo_Piano/S...25/virus.shtml
--
Luigi ( un italiano che vive in Svezia)
http://www.italymap.dk/sv/italien-karta.html
http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/de/...-sizilien.html

"GreyWyvern" <> wrote in message
news...
> On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 12:52:07 -0400, Karl Groves <>
> wrote:
>
> [snip - form fret fandango]
>
> > Any ideas?
>
> What percentage of your target audience has javascript disabled? What
> percentage use text-to-speech? In many cases there *is* such a thing as
> "acceptable losses".
>

I agree completely with you on "acceptable losses".
The truth is (AFAIK), fully 0.0% of users access the site with scripting
disabled and/ or text-only/ text-to-speech user agents.
My issue is in complying with Fed Rehab Act Section 508.

-Karl

"Karl Groves" <> skrev i meddelandet
news:cbhmpg$3qo$...
>
> "GreyWyvern" <> wrote in message
> news...
> > On Fri, 25 Jun 2004 12:52:07 -0400, Karl Groves
<>
> > wrote:
> >
> > [snip - form fret fandango]
> >
> > > Any ideas?
> >
> > What percentage of your target audience has javascript disabled? What
> > percentage use text-to-speech? In many cases there *is* such a thing as
> > "acceptable losses".
> >
>
> I agree completely with you on "acceptable losses".
> The truth is (AFAIK), fully 0.0% of users access the site with scripting
> disabled and/ or text-only/ text-to-speech user agents.

I usually have javascript disabled. It sounds strange to me that no other
user has javascript disabled.
--
Luigi ( un italiano che vive in Svezia)
http://www.italymap.dk/sv/italien-karta.html
http://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/de/...-sizilien.html

"Karl Groves" <> wrote in message
news:cbhl7o$2kn$...
> I am currently working on a Project Journaling Tool which uses a relational
> database structure. Naturally the information in the different tables are
> used to populate forms for the project journal and the journal's admin
> screens.
>
> For instance, to add a note to the journal:
>
> 1) User selects the "client" about whom they're making the entry
>
>
> 2) Upon selecting the "Client", we want to narrow down the "Project" list to
> only include projects for that client.
>
> 3) Upon selecting the "Project", we want to narrow down the "Activity" list
> to only include activities for that project.
>
> 4) THEN, we can populate the "Budgeted Hours" and "Remaining Hours" fields.
>
> 5) Then they add comments, submit the form, etc.
>
>
>
If you are refreashing the page anyway - why use JS? PhP would do the job ok
without the accessability issues. And if you are on a windos box I am sure thee
is a similar option (asp?) This way the result is all html - no access issue.

In article <cbhmpg$3qo$>,
says...
> I agree completely with you on "acceptable losses".
> The truth is (AFAIK), fully 0.0% of users access the site with scripting
> disabled and/ or text-only/ text-to-speech user agents.
> My issue is in complying with Fed Rehab Act Section 508.

Actually 508 allows for this.

But why not populate the dropdowns with everything, then if someone does
not have javascript turned on, or is using a reader they get the entire
list. then change everything with javascript to narrow the list.

This way if you have JS turned off, you have a big list and see
everything, and if you have it turned on (like the majority of your
clients) then you see a narrowed list like you like.

--
Whitecrest Entertainment
www.whitecrestent.com

Karl Groves wrote:
> I could do this in 5 minutes with JavaScript, or simply refresh
> the page with "onChange" to populate those fields.

How about providing two ways to refresh the page? (1) Your JavaScript
code, and (2) a button next to the dropdown.

Furthermore, you could have code in your script to hide that button. So,
if the user agent supports scripting, the page will refresh
automatically for them with no ungainly buttons. If the user agent does
not support scripting, they can use the button (which will of course
stay visible).

This will ensure two purposes: (1) You don't tax the majority of users
for catering to the minority, and (2) more importantly, you don't ignore
the minority either.

--
Regards,
Manas.
__________________________________________________ ________________________
Manas Tungare, http://www.manastungare.com/

Everyone using IE on Intel should have javascript turned OFF
as there is yet another major security hole in the Microsoft
bloated pig of a browser and in its inferior IIS HTTPD.

<http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&edition=us&ie=ascii&q=javascript+virus>

--bks

"Bradley K. Sherman" <> wrote in message
news:cbjsu2$imn$...
>
> Everyone using IE on Intel should have javascript turned OFF
> as there is yet another major security hole in the Microsoft
> bloated pig of a browser and in its inferior IIS HTTPD.

Yawn...

--
Cheers
Richard.