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Why are standards important?

 
 
bjg
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      02-13-2004
?


 
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rf
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      02-13-2004

"bjg" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
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> ?


If you need to ask the question you will not understand the answer.


 
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bjg
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      02-13-2004
"rf" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:6h_Wb.54043$(E-Mail Removed)...
>
> "bjg" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> > ?

>
> If you need to ask the question you will not understand the answer.


The reason I ask, is I have always seen standards as important for my own
personal projects, but how do you convince your boss that? I work for a
large well-known online retailer, and soon we are re-designing the site.. I
have seen the other people's work who are helping and they don't even care
about standards. Time = money and it takes time to make a site comply with
standards, especially if you're a messy coder who has no idea.

By question would have been better phrased, as what are some reasons why
standards are important for a high-traffic website? "If it looks good in IE,
who cares" seems to be the attitude at work. I don't think I can persuade
them with moral arguments...

Any ideas?


 
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Kim André Akerĝ
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      02-13-2004
"bjg" <bjgatinternodedotondotnet> skrev i melding
news:402c8986$(E-Mail Removed)...
> "rf" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:6h_Wb.54043$(E-Mail Removed)...
> >
> > "bjg" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> > news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> > > ?

> >
> > If you need to ask the question you will not understand the answer.

>
> The reason I ask, is I have always seen standards as important for my own
> personal projects, but how do you convince your boss that? I work for a
> large well-known online retailer, and soon we are re-designing the site..

I
> have seen the other people's work who are helping and they don't even care
> about standards. Time = money and it takes time to make a site comply with
> standards, especially if you're a messy coder who has no idea.
>
> By question would have been better phrased, as what are some reasons why
> standards are important for a high-traffic website? "If it looks good in

IE,
> who cares" seems to be the attitude at work. I don't think I can persuade
> them with moral arguments...
>
> Any ideas?


"What if they made American roads only for Chrysler cars?"

There's a good start for a discussion whether or not you should comply to
standards. Microsoft has been in "trouble" before regarding the monopoly
they've set up in the latest Windows versions. Guess what happens then?

Also, you lose the customers who prefer to use Opera, Netscape,
Mozilla/Firefox, Safari and whatnot as their browser, simply because it
looks ugly (which makes the visitor think your company is less trustworthy).

Personally, I've made sure my new corporate website complied to standards,
and I even made it just as look good in Internet Explorer, Netscape
Navigator, Opera and Lynx. I know, I've checked.

--
Kim André Akerĝ
- http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed)
(remove NOSPAM to contact me directly)


 
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Cameron
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      02-13-2004
bjg wrote:
> "rf" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:6h_Wb.54043$(E-Mail Removed)...
>
>>"bjg" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>>news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>>
>>>?

>>
>>If you need to ask the question you will not understand the answer.

>
>
> The reason I ask, is I have always seen standards as important for my own
> personal projects, but how do you convince your boss that? I work for a
> large well-known online retailer, and soon we are re-designing the site.. I
> have seen the other people's work who are helping and they don't even care
> about standards. Time = money and it takes time to make a site comply with
> standards, especially if you're a messy coder who has no idea.
>
> By question would have been better phrased, as what are some reasons why
> standards are important for a high-traffic website? "If it looks good in IE,
> who cares" seems to be the attitude at work. I don't think I can persuade
> them with moral arguments...
>
> Any ideas?
>
>


Because IE isn't the only browser that people use and IE has, or at
least had bugs that allow for sloppy markup, so a site will look fine in
IE but not in other browsers that actually conform to the W3C's
standards, and in reponce to your comment about time = money, a pro web
developer shouldn't take ages to write markup that is standards
compliant, I don't do it as a job (Unfortunately) but I can write
standards compliant (X)HTML that validates first time.

~Cameron
 
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Woolly Mittens
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      02-13-2004
"bjg" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
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> ?


One conforms to standards if one wishes the code to be interoperable.

- Standards compliant code is accessible by any end user application, which
supports the used standard.
- Standards compliant code remains servicable for as long as the standard
exists, not until the next incremental update of the most popular browser.
- Standards compliant code is readable by other coders than just you.


 
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rf
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      02-13-2004

"bjg" <bjgatinternodedotondotnet> wrote in message
news:402c8986$(E-Mail Removed)...
> "rf" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:6h_Wb.54043$(E-Mail Removed)...
> >
> > "bjg" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> > news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> > > ?

> >
> > If you need to ask the question you will not understand the answer.


> By question would have been better phrased, as what are some reasons why
> standards are important for a high-traffic website? "If it looks good in

IE,
> who cares" seems to be the attitude at work. I don't think I can persuade
> them with moral arguments...


A much better phrasing of the question

Lets expand it to three things: Standards; Browser compliance; Browser error
correction.

There are N browsers out there. All of them adhere to some of the standards.
If you code exactly to the standards then there is a chance your page will
be viewable by all of those browsers and a greater chance that it will be
viewable with browsers to come. Those bits of the standards that the
browsers do not understand will not matter as they should [1] ignore those
bits. The page will still be viewable.

If you do not code to the standards then it is guaranteed that one of the
browsers out there will get upset, one way or another.

Browsers comply with the standards to varying degrees. If you stay within
the standards you will find most browsers get upset about something or
other[2]. You may just have to test your page in all browsers you choose to
support [1] and find a subset of the standards that works for you.

You will also find that certain browsers (specifically IE) have extensions
which are totally outside the standard. Use these extensions and you
guarantee that your page will break in all other browsers.

Browsers have error correction, unfortunately, IE being by far the worst
[3]. Throw any mangled bit of HTML at IE and it will make an attempt to
decide what you are talking about. Other browsers are a bit more discerning,
they will simply ignore your bad HTML. Code to the standards and you do not
fall into the error recovery guessing that browsers indulge in and, in the
case of IE, you will no fall into sloppiness complacency which you trust the
browser to correct.

[1] Look at what Netscape 4.x ( a dead browser) does with CSS. It does not
ignore what it does not understand, it guesses and gets it horribly wrong. A
browser to be avoided at all costs.

[2] IE5 and the broken box model.

[3] I spend most of my life coding in C++. With C++ There is <em>*NO*</em>
error recovery. If I make even the simplest of syntax errors, like missing a
; at the end of a statement then the compiler says: Hey, I'm not going to
compile this, code this correctly, it's your code, *you* get it right.

Cheers
Richard.


 
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Steve R.
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      02-13-2004
bjg wrote in message ...
> "If it looks good in IE, who cares" seems to be the attitude at work.


That's the policy of the company that I work within. They cater for the
*majority* as in many walks of life.


 
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Steve R.
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      02-13-2004
Kim André Akerĝ wrote in message ....
> Also, you lose the customers who prefer to use Opera, Netscape,
> Mozilla/Firefox, Safari and whatnot as their browser, simply because it
> looks ugly (which makes the visitor think your company is less

trustworthy).

My company's policy is that it's only *nerds* who use browsers other than
IE, so they don't give a damn about Opera etc., users


 
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Cameron
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      02-13-2004
Steve R. wrote:
> bjg wrote in message ...
>
>>"If it looks good in IE, who cares" seems to be the attitude at work.

>
>
> That's the policy of the company that I work within. They cater for the
> *majority* as in many walks of life.
>
>


It is indeed shameful that companies adopt this attitude, and I aren't
going to reboot my PC, boot up winodws and open up IE just to view x
website I'm going to go find another website that actually works
properly in all browsers, Windows is there for one reason only and that
is if the desire to play morrowind or one of a few other windows
requiring games arrises, and I haven't even booted up windows for about
2 months.

~Cameron
 
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