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quirks mode and IE5 vs IE6

 
 
GD
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      02-12-2004
Jeff Thies <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> > I've often tested pages in IE6 in quirks mode and they looked
> > ok, but when IE5.0 loaded them they *seriously* broke.


> Like how? Overwritting content?


Positioning elements in the wrong place or rendering the wrong width are
the main things. I've noticed that on some pages if I use absolute
positioning and set the element width to 100% then IE5 doesn't equate
that with 100% of the window. If there isn't enough text in the main
area to go accross the screen and wrap then the positioned element ends
up as wide as the text. There should be no relationship between a
positioned element and the length of a line of text in a normal element,
especially when the main box isn't a parent of the positioned box.

> > As has been the case with NS4 (or even still is for some), as long as
> > sites keep working with IE5 why will people ever be motivated to
> > upgrade? From their point of view there's no problem with IE5 - it
> > works.


> Well you know, we have to support the major browsers.


True, but there's a difference between making sure the site works ok,
and worrying about evey last pixel. For instance, adding padding and
margin to inline elements can be very useful, especially on navigation
bars where you want to space out links but not use a table. IE5 can't
render the padding or margin so the links will be closer together, but
it hardly breaks the site. If the user wants it prettier they should
have the decency to upgrade. I'm not even wanting people to change to an
alternative browser like Mozilla or Opera, just a version of their
'free' browser that came out in the last 3 years!


> Is IE5 Mac closer to IE6 windows or IE5 windows?


Closer to IE6 but better They're totally different layout engines so
IE for Mac has its own set of bugs. Floating is broken but in a
different way from IE5 on Windows and it doesn't seem to combine line
height, padding and margin correctly on inline elements. But apart from
that it renders closer to Opera 6 than any other browser, at least in my
experience. Maybe it's different with tag soup It does fixed
positioning, child and adjacent CSS selectors and even allows the
contents of positioned elements to break out without clipping them,
something IE for Windows does to annoy me, personally!

 
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Eric Bohlman
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      02-12-2004
"GD" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in news:(E-Mail Removed):

> I've never been motivated enough to look into it in detail. I just hope
> people have learned from the nightmare of trying to support NS4 for so
> long that it's not worth the hassle, especially when the users are just
> too lazy to upgrade to IE6 or a better browser. I doubt anyone can cite
> resource issues as the reason for sticking with IE5.


If "anyone" means "any autonomous individual in complete control of his
computer setup" you're probably right. But consider a large corporate
setting with tens of thousands of users all using IE5. In that case, an
upgrade is a pretty massive undertaking, especially considering all the
Intranet application that would have to be tested with the new browser to
make sure they don't break. There's a good reason why large organizations
seldom have bleeding-edge technology.
 
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Karl Smith
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      02-13-2004
"GD" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> Steve Pugh <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> > >There is no full standards mode in IE5.

>
> That applies to IE for Windows but IE5 for Mac does Doctype sniffing (I
> think it was the first 'big' browser to do so?) and will get the box
> sizes right in strict mode. It also supports the proposed CSS3 property
> to select the method of calculating box sizes for each selector.


Opera 7, and I believe Mozilla too, implement the "box-sizing"
property. IIRC, it is no longer officially a CSS3 proposal, more
recent CSS3 drafts saying the need for such a property is obviated,
now that "all major browsers" implement the CSS box model similarly.
 
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=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Andr=E9s_Sedano?=
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      02-14-2004
Jeff Thies wrote:

> Well, it's probably past time for me to regularly include doctype in my
> html.
>
> What is quirks mode and how do I avoid it. I seem to recall a specific url
> is required.
>
> What is the suggested doctype for html4.0 transitional? That's probably what
> I'm writing.
>
> Also, what's the differences between IE5(windows) and IE6?
>
> I don't have IE6, but usually what I write looks very similar in IE5, Opera7
> and NS7.1. Sometimes IE5 mac looks a bit different although Safari is good.
> What do I need to worry about in IE6?
>
> Cheers,
> Jeff
>
>


May I ask you why don't you use IE6? When I have to use IE5 in some
client's office, I suffer a lot. It renders incorrectly lots of pages
and I can't stand that... I can't understand why people doesn't use IE6
if it's safer, faster, more compatible with standards...

So, please, can you tell me why are you still using IE5?

Or, if anyone has reasons, I'd greatly appreciate if you share them with me.

Cheers,
Andrés
 
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Jeff Thies
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      02-14-2004
<snip>

> May I ask you why don't you use IE6? When I have to use IE5 in some
> client's office, I suffer a lot. It renders incorrectly lots of pages
> and I can't stand that...


Gee, could that be it?

I can't author something that may be badly broken in a mainstream browser,
even if it is that browsers fault.

>I can't understand why people doesn't use IE6
> if it's safer, faster, more compatible with standards...


By the same token, why use IE at all? If I'm browsing for my own purposes, I
don't use IE.

>
> So, please, can you tell me why are you still using IE5?


Because my clients would go balistic if 18% of their audience had serious
problems with their site and I wasn't even aware of it! It's really the
difference between authoring for yourself, and authoring for a living. If
site appearance is important, and it is for my clients, this goes triple.

I'm just glad I don't have to support NS4 anymore!

Cheers,
Jeff

> Or, if anyone has reasons, I'd greatly appreciate if you share them with

me.
>
> Cheers,
> Andrés



 
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David Dorward
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      02-14-2004
Jeff Thies wrote:

>> So, please, can you tell me why are you still using IE5?

>
> Because my clients would go balistic if 18% of their audience had serious
> problems with their site and I wasn't even aware of it!


That is a good reason to test pages in IE5.

It leaves two questions. Why do you not test your pages in Internet Explorer
6? Why do you not use IE6 for normal use (or better yet, a decent browser
like FireFox)?

--
David Dorward <http://dorward.me.uk/>
 
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Eric Bohlman
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      02-14-2004
"Jeff Thies" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in
news:7DnXb.4391$(E-Mail Removed) nk.net:

>> So, please, can you tell me why are you still using IE5?

>
> Because my clients would go balistic if 18% of their audience had
> serious problems with their site and I wasn't even aware of it! It's
> really the difference between authoring for yourself, and authoring
> for a living. If site appearance is important, and it is for my
> clients, this goes triple.


And it's important to remember that many viewers may be using IE5 because
it's what's installed on the machine that they're using and because the
machine isn't their *personal* machine, they *can't* upgrade the browser.
 
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Jeff Thies
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      02-14-2004
> >> So, please, can you tell me why are you still using IE5?
> >
> > Because my clients would go balistic if 18% of their audience had

serious
> > problems with their site and I wasn't even aware of it!

>
> That is a good reason to test pages in IE5.
>
> It leaves two questions. Why do you not test your pages in Internet

Explorer
> 6?


Probably because I do no want to dual boot and I know what it looks like
elsewhere.

> Why do you not use IE6 for normal use (or better yet, a decent browser
> like FireFox)?


I rather like NS7.1. Not familiar with FireFox.

Cheers,
Jeff
>
> --
> David Dorward <http://dorward.me.uk/>



 
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Barry Pearson
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      02-14-2004
Jeff Thies wrote:
[snip]
> I rather like NS7.1. Not familiar with FireFox.


Try it - with the Web Developer Toolbar. The latter is super. (I wouldn't use
Firefox for general browsing).
http://chrispederick.myacen.com/work.../webdeveloper/

But perhaps you already use the Mozilla version of the toolbar, that works
with Netscape 7.1? Also super.

--
Barry Pearson
http://www.Barry.Pearson.name/photography/
http://www.BirdsAndAnimals.info/
http://www.ChildSupportAnalysis.co.uk/


 
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Alan J. Flavell
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      02-14-2004
On Sat, 14 Feb 2004, Eric Bohlman wrote:

> And it's important to remember that many viewers may be using IE5 because
> it's what's installed on the machine that they're using and because the
> machine isn't their *personal* machine, they *can't* upgrade the browser.


Sure. But conversely, it may be important to remember that there will
be viewers using IE6 because _that's_ what's installed on their
machine. So designing a page "to" the bugs of IE5 (which might have
been corrected in later versions, but if the author doesn't have one
then he won't necessarily know that) is not the answer, either.

Unfortunately, it's a lot of fuss to maintain more than one version of
Win IE. In fact, due to security concerns we get into trouble if we
run old versions of IE on our network: updating to the latest MS
fixes isn't an option - it's a requirement, in this context.
 
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