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what % of users can see frames?

 
 
Derek Clarkson
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      01-14-2004
Hi Andrew,
I can't say that frames are evil, but they do tend to polarise web masters.
My opinion is that like the much maligned GOTO statement, they have their
place and understanding where that is is the key. For example, I used
frames on my old site because my ISP could not provide me with any server
scripting support. So frames where the only way I could construct a site
without repeating the core content on every single document. Obviously a
maintenance headache.

However if you web server does have scripting support then I would suggest
avoiding frames for many of the reasons supplied by other people. My own
preference for the type of layouts that frames provide is to use sever side
scripting and CSS to control the position of the relevant data. CSS
positioning is still very much in flux as many browsers tend to implement
things slightly differently, but over all I find it easy to work with.

Hope this helps.

--
cio
Derek
 
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ANDREW MITCHELL
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      01-15-2004
Hi all -

I am interested in building a simple site that 90%+ of web users can view.
If I use frames, will I disqualify a substantial number of users? Are there
still people out there using browsers that don't support frames?

Thanks for your help.

Best,
A


 
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brucie
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      01-15-2004
in post: <news:TuoNb.14389$(E-Mail Removed) >
"ANDREW MITCHELL" <(E-Mail Removed)> said:

> I am interested in building a simple site that 90%+ of web users can view.
> If I use frames,


don't use frames!

http://html-faq.com/htmlframes/?framesareevil
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/l_vajzo...eb/frames.html
http://www.karlcore.com/articles/article.php?id=2
http://david.us-lot.org/www/frames/

> will I disqualify a substantial number of users?


frame support isn't really an issue if you do them properly but by their
very nature they're rarely a method worth considering implementing.

--
brucie - i usenet nude
 
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Mark Parnell
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      01-15-2004
On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 04:16:51 GMT, "ANDREW MITCHELL"
<(E-Mail Removed)> declared in alt.html:

> Hi all -
>
> I am interested in building a simple site that 90%+ of web users can view.


Why not 100%?

> If I use frames, will I disqualify a substantial number of users? Are there
> still people out there using browsers that don't support frames?


That's irrelevant.
http://html-faq.com/htmlframes/?framesareevil
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/l_vajzo...eb/frames.html
http://dorward.me.uk/www/frames/

>
> Thanks for your help.


No worries.

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Mark Parnell
http://www.clarkecomputers.com.au
 
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brucie
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      01-15-2004
in post: <news:(E-Mail Removed)>
Derek Clarkson <(E-Mail Removed)> said:

> ISP could not provide me with any server scripting support So frames
> where the only way I could construct a site without repeating the
> core content on every single document.


you could have used preprocessing. a much better and easier solution
than frames.

--
brucie - i usenet nude
 
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mscir
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      01-15-2004
Would you explain this further? I have about 29k of javascript menu I'd
like to avoid loading for each and every page. Suggested reading/url?

brucie wrote:

> in post: <news:(E-Mail Removed)>
> Derek Clarkson <(E-Mail Removed)> said:
>
>
>>ISP could not provide me with any server scripting support So frames
>>where the only way I could construct a site without repeating the
>>core content on every single document.

>
>
> you could have used preprocessing. a much better and easier solution
> than frames.
>


 
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Mark Parnell
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      01-15-2004
On Wed, 14 Jan 2004 22:22:56 -0800, mscir <(E-Mail Removed)>
declared in alt.html:

> Would you explain this further? I have about 29k of javascript menu I'd
> like to avoid loading for each and every page. Suggested reading/url?
>


In that case, put your javascript in a separate file, and link to it
from each page.

<script src="yourfile.js" type="text/javascript"></script>

--
Mark Parnell
http://www.clarkecomputers.com.au
 
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brucie
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      01-15-2004
in post: <news:(E-Mail Removed)>
mscir <(E-Mail Removed)> said:

>>>ISP could not provide me with any server scripting support So frames
>>>where the only way I could construct a site without repeating the
>>>core content on every single document.


>> you could have used preprocessing. a much better and easier solution
>> than frames.


> Would you explain this further?


http://allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?Include_one_file_in_another

> I have about 29k of javascript menu


thats about how large you page should be /in total/ not just a menu

> I'd like to avoid loading for each and every page.


then use a frame although i would rethink the menu


--
brucie - i usenet nude
 
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Lauri Raittila
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      01-15-2004
In article mscir wrote:

[bruciereprocessor]

> Would you explain this further?


Preprosessor is tool that you can use in your home machine, it ads stuff
automatically according to some rules. I haven't used any publicly
available, so I can't comment them. But preprosessing saves huge times,
and you are server independent (but somewhat preprosessor dependent .

> I have about 29k of javascript menu I'd
> like to avoid loading for each and every page. Suggested reading/url?


Hm. 29k javascript menu is likely to be bigger problem than most frames.
Frames are just very annoying to use to most people, js menu might not
work at all and it is propably hard to use as well. Try using it whiout
mouse, for example. Of course there is exeptions, where it might make
sence, but I have never seen one used then...

(of course you can use external js file, it will be cached.)

--
Lauri Raittila <http://www.iki.fi/lr> <http://www.iki.fi/zwak/fonts>
Saapi lähettää meiliä, jos aihe ei liity ryhmään, tai on yksityinen
tjsp., mutta älä lähetä samaa viestiä meilitse ja ryhmään.

 
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mscir
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      01-15-2004
Looking for a way to avoid frames but still keep my 29k js menu...
google found this:

================================================== ======================

http://www.javascriptkit.com/javatut...icientjs.shtml

Tip 2: Cache your scripts!

You've "cashed in" your objects...another way to enhance script
performance is the cache the entire script, by including it in a .js
file. The technique causes the browser to load the script in question
only once, and recall it from cache should the page be reloaded or
revisited.

<script src="imagescript.js"></script>

Use script caching when a script is extremely large, or embedded across
multiple pages.

================================================== ======================

Is this right? After a javascript menu is downloaded once (2 .js files),
it will be loaded from the cache (local memory) every time the user
loads a page that uses that menu?

Are there cache size limitations, such that downloading a large image
from one page will replace the menu code in the cache, forcing it to be
downloaded again?

Thanks,
Mike


brucie wrote:
> in post: <news:(E-Mail Removed)>
> Derek Clarkson <(E-Mail Removed)> said:
>
>
>>ISP could not provide me with any server scripting support So frames
>>where the only way I could construct a site without repeating the
>>core content on every single document.

>
>
> you could have used preprocessing. a much better and easier solution
> than frames.
>


 
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