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Beauregard T. Shagnasty replied to hisself:

>> Sorry, but I don't agree on this one: the site works in 800 x 600. Set
>> your
>> monitor to the correct resolution and it will work. It works on all the
>> machines I have got standing right next to me.
>
> My monitor is set to my preference. Your page does show a scrollbar with
> a window size of 800x600. Why would you want me to change my resolution
> (which again is irrelevant) just for your site anyway? And why would you
> want to design for one particular size?
> http://www.allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?AnySizeDesign

Here's a screenshot from Opera. Note the browser size in the titlebar,
and the horizontal scrollbar.
http://home.rochester.rr.com/bshagna...ctiveopera.jpg

--
-bts
-This space intentionally left blank.

"Beauregard T. Shagnasty" <> wrote in message
news:rFKHb.84937$...
> Quoth the raven named Fredo Vincentis:
>
> > "Beauregard T. Shagnasty" <> wrote in message
> > news:OPDHb.4967$...
> >
> >>Quoth the raven named Fredo Vincentis:
> >>
> >>> http://www.addictivemedia.com.au/index_html.php
> >>
> >>>Thanks for your feedback, Richard. The reason why I emphasize XP is
> >>>that I tested the site on IE 6 for Win2000 and it works fine.
> >>
> >>No it doesn't.
> >>
> >>http://home.rochester.rr.com/bshagna.../addictive.jpg 80KB
> >>
> >>Windows 2000 Pro SP4
> >>IE 6 SP1
> >> Tools > Internet Options > Accessibility
> >> [x] Ignore font sizes specified on web pages
> >> (because your font size is too small)
> >>Browser at 800x600
> >>Monitor at 1024x768 (however, irrelevant)
> >>
> >>There is a horizontal scrollbar at 800x600. Needs to be about 855
> >>pixels wide before scrollbar disappears.
> >
> > Sorry, but I don't agree on this one: the site works in 800 x 600. Set
your
> > monitor to the correct resolution and it will work. It works on all the
> > machines I have got standing right next to me.
>
> My monitor is set to my preference. Your page does show a scrollbar
> with a window size of 800x600. Why would you want me to change my
> resolution (which again is irrelevant) just for your site anyway? And
> why would you want to design for one particular size?
> http://www.allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?AnySizeDesign

Sorry, I didn't mean for you to set your monitor to 800x600 for eternity,
but only to test the site if you do not believe me that it fits.
To create a design that is not expandable was consciously decided for this
website. I generally agree to make a site that fits all browsers (or at
least 800x600 and above), but in order to have complete control over the
design and the position of elements to eachother, my client wanted a 800x60
0 design.

> > The site works fine in IE 6 and all other browsers with the stylesheets
as
> > defined. If the css are overwritten, I agree it does not look great, but
the
> > site is accessible and that is what my client requires.
>
> So you think you can control the computers of all your visitors, then.
> The visitors will never have a sidebar opened? You think everyone
> browses with the window maximized?

I am not saying visitors will never have a scrollbar. I am saying it is
accessible. People can read the content and can navigate.

> > The font is not too small for the target audience specified.On a
different
> > website I will use a different font-size, but this particular site
addresses
> > the target audience just right.
>
> Are you saying this site is targeted to /only/ young people with
> excellent vision? How bold of you.

Yes, this may be bold. But the idea of chosing a target audience is to be
able to address the majority of your users. This particular website is not
dealing with content that has to be accessible by general public, but by a
specific group of people. It is part of a marketing strategy.

While sitting in a puddle Fredo Vincentis scribbled in the mud:

> "Beauregard T. Shagnasty" <> wrote in
> message news:OPDHb.4967$...
>> Quoth the raven named Fredo Vincentis:
>>
>> > http://www.addictivemedia.com.au/index_html.php
>

Wow, you got a Golden web award. That is so cool because so did I!
http://www.duende.bigmoron.com/

--
Duende
The best defense against logic is ignorance.

"Fredo Vincentis" <> wrote in message
news:bsnnlu$1oso$...
> "Beauregard T. Shagnasty" <> wrote in message
> news:OPDHb.4967$...
> > Quoth the raven named Fredo Vincentis:
> >
> > > http://www.addictivemedia.com.au/index_html.php
> >
> > > Thanks for your feedback, Richard. The reason why I emphasize XP is
> > > that I tested the site on IE 6 for Win2000 and it works fine.
> >
> > No it doesn't.
> >
> > http://home.rochester.rr.com/bshagna.../addictive.jpg 80KB
> >
> > Windows 2000 Pro SP4
> > IE 6 SP1
> > Tools > Internet Options > Accessibility
> > [x] Ignore font sizes specified on web pages
> > (because your font size is too small)
> > Browser at 800x600
> > Monitor at 1024x768 (however, irrelevant)
> >
> > There is a horizontal scrollbar at 800x600. Needs to be about 855
> > pixels wide before scrollbar disappears.
>
> Sorry, but I don't agree on this one: the site works in 800 x 600. Set
your
> monitor to the correct resolution and it will work. It works on all the
> machines I have got standing right next to me.

Monitor resolution has nothing to do with canvas size. Telling your audience
to change to a specific screen resolution is, imho, somewhat arrogant.

In fact, multimedia usually implies larger monitors running higher
resolution. I do a bit of CAD and use a similar setup to my mate who does
*lots* of multimedia, that is twin 19 inch at 1600x1200 each. On such a
monitor your font is too small and you try hard to stop me from changing it
and when I do your site breaks.

> The site works fine in IE 6 and all other browsers with the stylesheets as
> defined. If the css are overwritten, I agree it does not look great, but
the
> site is accessible and that is what my client requires.

It is not accessible. You have coded the font size in pixels, making it
unaccessible for some of those using IE, unless they choose to ignore your
font size suggestions. Then it breaks.

> The font is not too small for the target audience specified.

How do you know? Can you assure us that every one of your target audience
has perfect eyesight? I think not. Even if you impose some sort of
demographic on them, for example they must be less than 30 years old, it
still does not work. The little kid up the road from me has quite bad
eyesight and has her font size set to something like 20 pixels. You are
intentionally discriminating against her. Her dad may be one of your
potential customers and she may say to him "daddy, icky, I can't READ that
site". She probably won't though, she uses Mozilla and would simply roll her
mouse wheel a bit to make the font bigger. It does not break in Mozilla but
it does break in IE.

> On a different
> website I will use a different font-size,

Why. Why not just always use the font size the viewer has chosen as their
preference? How do you come to the conclusion that *you* know better than
*I* what font size I like. My &deity;, you don't even know what flavour of
*beer* I like[*]

> but this particular site addresses
> the target audience just right.

Evidence? Testimonials? Viewer feedback (*not* customer feedback)?

> > Curious as to why the filename is index_html.php rather than just
> > index.php ?
>
> There are two versions of the site - a flash version and a html version.
> index.php runs through a flash-detection and redirects the user
accordingly.
> So there is a file called index_html and a file called index_flash.

Oh my.
[*] Anything, so long as it's not that stuff brucie imbibes up in QLD or
that stuff with an F on it you guys try to sell out of VIC

Cheers
Richard.

"rf" <> wrote in message
news:7uPHb.68752$...
>
> "Fredo Vincentis" <> wrote in message
> news:bsnnlu$1oso$...
> > "Beauregard T. Shagnasty" <> wrote in message
> > news:OPDHb.4967$...
> > > Quoth the raven named Fredo Vincentis:

> > > There is a horizontal scrollbar at 800x600. Needs to be about 855
> > > pixels wide before scrollbar disappears.
> >
> > Sorry, but I don't agree on this one: the site works in 800 x 600. Set
> your
> > monitor to the correct resolution and it will work. It works on all the
> > machines I have got standing right next to me.
>
> Monitor resolution has nothing to do with canvas size. Telling your
audience
> to change to a specific screen resolution is, imho, somewhat arrogant.

I meant for Beauregard to change the resolution so he can check it properly,
as it does work on 800 x 600. I don't mean for every user to change it, as
the target audience will be perfectly fine with any resolution higher than
800 x 600.

I am well aware of the fact that monitor resolution has got nothing to do
with canvas size. But a user that reduces the size of his browser window to
less than the 780 x 415 will be accustomed to having a scroll bar.

> > The font is not too small for the target audience specified.
>
> How do you know? Can you assure us that every one of your target audience
> has perfect eyesight? I think not. Even if you impose some sort of
> demographic on them, for example they must be less than 30 years old, it
> still does not work. The little kid up the road from me has quite bad
> eyesight and has her font size set to something like 20 pixels. You are
> intentionally discriminating against her. Her dad may be one of your
> potential customers and she may say to him "daddy, icky, I can't READ
that
> site". She probably won't though, she uses Mozilla and would simply roll
her
> mouse wheel a bit to make the font bigger. It does not break in Mozilla
but
> it does break in IE.

If you really want to discuss accessibility with me, let's do it. My client
has chosen a particular target audience and this target audience is
addressed in the design and the HTML as required. There are certain groups
of people that fall outside of the target audience. These may be people with
visual, cognitive or other disabilities. The website was created to be
accessible by these people. This may not mean that the design always looks
100%, but the content can be read and the user can navigate through it. A
horizontal scrollbar or a white line somewhere in the design does not rule
out accessibility.

Users with a visual disability that requires them to have larger font-sizes
surely would have their browsers set up to ignore font-sizes set by the
author. Yes, the design does not look 100%, but it is still accessible.

There are certain considerations a web designer has to make when creating a
website. I am sure you know about discussions on font-sizes so I do not have
to lecture you on them. But in the long run we are hovering somewhere
between controlling the design and controlling accessibility. Fulfilling
both is currently not possible. We have to find a middle-way and the way my
client chose was one of them: design for a certain target audience - the
rest of the world will have an accessible yet visually less attractive site.

> > On a different
> > website I will use a different font-size,
>
> Why. Why not just always use the font size the viewer has chosen as their
> preference? How do you come to the conclusion that *you* know better than
> *I* what font size I like.

I am surprised you have to ask this question, but here comes the answer:
some people have their browsers set to a different font-size without even
knowing it. This may have nothing to do with visual impairdness, but simply
a mis-setting in the browser. Setting the font-sizes to fixed pts ensures
that the design looks the way it was planned.

> My &deity;, you don't even know what flavour of
> *beer* I like[*]

You sound like somebody that likes VB?

> > but this particular site addresses
> > the target audience just right.
>
> Evidence? Testimonials? Viewer feedback (*not* customer feedback)?

Market research, business and target audience analysis. I am sorry, but
these information are not for your curious eyes.

"Beauregard T. Shagnasty" <> wrote in message
news0LHb.85936$...
> Beauregard T. Shagnasty replied to hisself:
>
> >> Sorry, but I don't agree on this one: the site works in 800 x 600. Set
> >> your
> >> monitor to the correct resolution and it will work. It works on all the
> >> machines I have got standing right next to me.
> >
> > My monitor is set to my preference. Your page does show a scrollbar with
> > a window size of 800x600. Why would you want me to change my resolution
> > (which again is irrelevant) just for your site anyway? And why would you
> > want to design for one particular size?
> > http://www.allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?AnySizeDesign
>
> Here's a screenshot from Opera. Note the browser size in the titlebar,
> and the horizontal scrollbar.
> http://home.rochester.rr.com/bshagna...ctiveopera.jpg

Sorry, but this still hasn't persuaded me. I have set two machines to a
resolution of 800 x 600 and have got Opera 7 installed on both. The website
displays fine in both cases. It seems your 800 pixels are different to mine.

"Fredo Vincentis" <> wrote in message
news:bsnue7$1qfr$...

> This particular website is not
> dealing with content that has to be accessible by general public, but by a
> specific group of people. It is part of a marketing strategy.

Can you or your client personally gaurantee that every one of your specific
group of people has eyesight good enough to read your small text, or rather
a size smaller than they have chosen as their preferred?

Marketing strategy usually includes [suck in the maximum number of people
you can]. You are intentionally excluding some of them.

Cheers
Richard.

"rf" <> wrote in message
news:ksRHb.68874$...
>
> "Fredo Vincentis" <> wrote in message
> news:bsnue7$1qfr$...
>
> > This particular website is not
> > dealing with content that has to be accessible by general public, but by
a
> > specific group of people. It is part of a marketing strategy.
>
> Can you or your client personally gaurantee that every one of your
specific
> group of people has eyesight good enough to read your small text, or
rather
> a size smaller than they have chosen as their preferred?
>
> Marketing strategy usually includes [suck in the maximum number of people
> you can]. You are intentionally excluding some of them.

No, a marketing strategy targets individual niches. To successfully promote
a product you create small but specific groups of target audiences and
individually create promotions that address their specific needs. The idea
of building up a target audience is to find common characteristics that are
held by the majority of your users but may exclude multiple minorities.

Fredo Vincentis wrote:
>
> some people have their browsers set to a different font-size without even
> knowing it. This may have nothing to do with visual impairdness, but simply
> a mis-setting in the browser.

And how, pray-tell, do you distinguish between those who intentionally
set this different font size and those who didn't? Or do you think the
more clueful user will just have to figure out how to deal with your
poor choices? I suspect the "back" button will be rather handy in these
cases.

> Setting the font-sizes to fixed pts ensures
> that the design looks the way it was planned.

At the expense of usability and/or accessibility, no doubt, plus it
frequently ends up as a fragile layout that easily falls apart. You
must be new around here, or you would have already read the myriad of
posts and reference sites regarding the ills of fixed designs, the web
is not DTP, etc. If both you and your client are shooting for form over
function, then your client probably isn't getting their money's worth.

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In article <3ff01ad3$0$43848$>, kcha-un-
says...
> If both you and your client are shooting for form over
> function, then your client probably isn't getting their money's worth.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

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