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OT: Nested Table Rant

 
 
Adrienne Boswell
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      10-30-2003
<movie="The Two Towers" character="Gollum">I hates Nested Tables! I
hates them! I hates them!</movie>

I've inherited a site that uses nested tables (4 deep) for
presentation. Urgh! I hate debugging these things. I'm getting rid
of them slowly but surely.

Just had to get that off my chest.

--
Adrienne Boswell
Please respond to the group so others can share
http://www.arbpen.com
 
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Leif K-Brooks
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      10-30-2003
Adrienne Boswell wrote:

> <movie="The Two Towers" character="Gollum">I hates Nested Tables! I
> hates them! I hates them!</movie>


You forgot to put the element name.

 
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DU
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Posts: n/a
 
      10-30-2003
Adrienne Boswell wrote:

> <movie="The Two Towers" character="Gollum">I hates Nested Tables! I
> hates them! I hates them!</movie>
>
> I've inherited a site that uses nested tables (4 deep) for
> presentation. Urgh! I hate debugging these things. I'm getting rid
> of them slowly but surely.
>
> Just had to get that off my chest.
>


You're not off topic. You're definitively on the topic of webpage
creation by amateurs. A lot, maybe as much as 50% of all websites out
there (3 billions 200 millions webpages were indexed by google.com) are
based on table designs.

I also had to debug a site which had over 50 tables all used for
positioning. Also 4 levels deep of nesting. It took me days, not hours,
to fix.

Each time I mentioned in this newsgroup that table design is bad (and
nested tables is worse, is madness), I made sure and underlined the
maintainance aspect of such page. Trying to debug and figure out a site
based on tables is really long, hard, time-demanding.

Why Tables For Layout is Stupid
http://www.hotdesign.com/seybold/
October 2003

Table design (furthermore nested tables based design):
"
# This makes the file sizes of your pages unnecessarily large, as users
must download this presentational data for each page they visit.
# Bandwidth ain't free.

# This makes redesigns of existing sites and content extremely labor
intensive (and expensive).
# It also makes it extremely hard (and expensive) to maintain visual
consistency throughout a site.
# Table-based pages are also much less accessible to users with
disabilities and viewers using cell phones and PDAs to access the Web."

http://www.hotdesign.com/seybold/06problems.html

DU
--
Javascript and Browser bugs:
http://www10.brinkster.com/doctorunclear/
- Resources, help and tips for Netscape 7.x users and Composer
- Interactive demos on Popup windows, music (audio/midi) in Netscape 7.x
http://www10.brinkster.com/doctorunc...e7Section.html

 
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Richard
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Posts: n/a
 
      10-30-2003
Adrienne Boswell wrote:

> <movie="The Two Towers" character="Gollum">I hates Nested Tables! I
> hates them! I hates them!</movie>


> I've inherited a site that uses nested tables (4 deep) for
> presentation. Urgh! I hate debugging these things. I'm getting rid
> of them slowly but surely.


> Just had to get that off my chest.


<applause>clap!</applause>


 
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gmcclary
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-30-2003
"DU" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:bnq2tv$o8u$(E-Mail Removed)...
> Adrienne Boswell wrote:
>
> > <movie="The Two Towers" character="Gollum">I hates Nested Tables! I
> > hates them! I hates them!</movie>
> >
> > I've inherited a site that uses nested tables (4 deep) for
> > presentation. Urgh! I hate debugging these things. I'm getting rid
> > of them slowly but surely.
> >
> > Just had to get that off my chest.
> >

>
> You're not off topic. You're definitively on the topic of webpage
> creation by amateurs. A lot, maybe as much as 50% of all websites out
> there (3 billions 200 millions webpages were indexed by google.com) are
> based on table designs.
>
> I also had to debug a site which had over 50 tables all used for
> positioning. Also 4 levels deep of nesting. It took me days, not hours,
> to fix.
>
> Each time I mentioned in this newsgroup that table design is bad (and
> nested tables is worse, is madness), I made sure and underlined the
> maintainance aspect of such page. Trying to debug and figure out a site
> based on tables is really long, hard, time-demanding.
>
> Why Tables For Layout is Stupid
> http://www.hotdesign.com/seybold/
> October 2003
>
> Table design (furthermore nested tables based design):
> "
> # This makes the file sizes of your pages unnecessarily large, as users
> must download this presentational data for each page they visit.
> # Bandwidth ain't free.
>
> # This makes redesigns of existing sites and content extremely labor
> intensive (and expensive).
> # It also makes it extremely hard (and expensive) to maintain visual
> consistency throughout a site.
> # Table-based pages are also much less accessible to users with
> disabilities and viewers using cell phones and PDAs to access the Web."
>
> http://www.hotdesign.com/seybold/06problems.html
>
> DU
> --
> Javascript and Browser bugs:
> http://www10.brinkster.com/doctorunclear/
> - Resources, help and tips for Netscape 7.x users and Composer
> - Interactive demos on Popup windows, music (audio/midi) in Netscape 7.x
> http://www10.brinkster.com/doctorunc...e7Section.html
>


Tables for layout works!

The future of the Web is in nested tables! (or nested <div>'s)
What, only four deep? You got no depth!

Tell me this, not using tables... (got it, no tables...)
Show me!
You positon text left... (empty background right)
You position text right... (empty area left)
and you position text center... (empty area left and right)

Now: then, (as part of the previous <div>) use a few thumbs (gif, png, who
cares) two columns; and CENTER the caption UNDER them... (Centered! png's or
gif thumnbs centered on canvas and text centered under each, agreed?)
THEN, centered under it all, center text, with background left and right...
show me...

(BUT! You may not use more div's than tables--(got it, you cannot use more
than 4 divs) )

You cannot do it with css...no tables. (HTML 4.1 or XHTML1 and CSS2---to
display in MSIE6, Opera 7.21, NS6)(all...)

Hell, you can't even make one text block center (with background left and
right) using only CSS without using <center> (of one definition or another,
html 3.2, 4.0, 4.1, xhtml, (loose or otherwise) (and display in msie6, ns7
and opera7) AND validate it w/ w3c)).

come back?

You show me, and I'll kiss your ugly dog on 1st and Main St at high noon,
and give you an hour to draw a crowd.

Glenn


 
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Adrienne
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-30-2003
Gazing into my crystal ball I observed Leif K-Brooks
<(E-Mail Removed)> writing in news:E90ob.1256$jg7.1138626
@newshog.newsread.com:

> Adrienne Boswell wrote:
>
>> <movie="The Two Towers" character="Gollum">I hates Nested Tables! I
>> hates them! I hates them!</movie>

>
> You forgot to put the element name.
>


Whoops!

<voice movie="The Two Towers" character="Gollum">I hates Nested Tables! I
hates them! I hates them!</voice>

<voice movie="The Two Towers" character="Sméagol">CSS is our friend. We
likes CSS. Go away Nested Tables - and never come back!</voice>

--
Adrienne Boswell
Please respond to the group so others can share
http://www.arbpen.com
 
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Toby A Inkster
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-30-2003
gmcclary wrote:

> Now: then, (as part of the previous <div>) use a few thumbs (gif, png, who
> cares) two columns; and CENTER the caption UNDER them... (Centered! png's or
> gif thumnbs centered on canvas and text centered under each, agreed?)


Using CSS 2.1, but only works in Opera 7:
http://www.goddamn.co.uk/tobyink/scr...ed-thumbs.html

Using CSS 2, works in IE5+, Mozilla, Netcape and Opera (and doesn't fail
too miserably in IE4):
http://www.goddamn.co.uk/tobyink/scr...-thumbs-6.html

Screenshots to prove it works:
http://www.goddamn.co.uk/tobyink/scr...e5-800x600.png
http://www.goddamn.co.uk/tobyink/scr...6-1024x768.png
http://www.goddamn.co.uk/tobyink/scr...4-1024x768.png
http://www.goddamn.co.uk/tobyink/scr...o7-640x480.png

--
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
Contact Me - http://www.goddamn.co.uk/tobyink/?id=132

 
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rf
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Posts: n/a
 
      10-30-2003

"gmcclary" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> "DU" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:bnq2tv$o8u$(E-Mail Removed)...
> > Adrienne Boswell wrote:
> >
> > > <movie="The Two Towers" character="Gollum">I hates Nested Tables! I
> > > hates them! I hates them!</movie>
> > >

<snip rant>
> >
> > You're not off topic. You're definitively on the topic of webpage
> > creation by amateurs. A lot, maybe as much as 50% of all websites out
> > there (3 billions 200 millions webpages were indexed by google.com) are
> > based on table designs.


<snip gripe>
>
> Tables for layout works!


but is a bastard to maintain

> The future of the Web is in nested tables! (or nested <div>'s)
> What, only four deep? You got no depth!


This particular future ended last century.

> Tell me this, not using tables... (got it, no tables...)
> Show me!


Hmmm. OK.

> You positon text left... (empty background right)


Yep.
http://users.bigpond.net.au/rf/test/pos/left.html

> You position text right... (empty area left)


Yep. I assume this is a cumulative challenge.
http://users.bigpond.net.au/rf/test/pos/right.html

> and you position text center... (empty area left and right)


Getting trickier...
http://users.bigpond.net.au/rf/test/pos/centre.html

So far I don't think I have used a single <div>.

> Now: then, (as part of the previous <div>) use a few thumbs (gif, png, who
> cares) two columns; and CENTER the caption UNDER them... (Centered! png's

or
> gif thumnbs centered on canvas and text centered under each, agreed?)
> THEN, centered under it all, center text, with background left and

right...
> show me...


Ah, finally something worthy of consideration. Took me a good 5 minutes to
solve this one

http://users.bigpond.net.au/rf/test/pos/thumbs.html

Works with IE6 and Mozilla 1.4. Have not checked any others.

> (BUT! You may not use more div's than tables--(got it, you cannot use more
> than 4 divs) )


<runs and counts &lt;div&gt;'s>

Yep. Maximum <div> nesting level: 3. I could even cheat and use <span
style="display: block"> but that would be cheating.

> You cannot do it with css...no tables. (HTML 4.1 or XHTML1 and CSS2---to
> display in MSIE6, Opera 7.21, NS6)(all...)


Er, I just did, except for Opera, which I don't have to hand at the moment
and NS, which I assume will work as Mozilla does. If it breaks in Opera
either Opera is broken or we have an excercise for the student

> Hell, you can't even make one text block center (with background left and
> right) using only CSS without using <center> (of one definition or

another,
> html 3.2, 4.0, 4.1, xhtml, (loose or otherwise) (and display in msie6, ns7
> and opera7) AND validate it w/ w3c)).


What is wrong with, for example:

..someclass {width: 12em; margin: auto;} ?

<p class="someclass">some centred text</p>

I really think you should go over to http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/ , read
it all and then play with it in each of the browsers you are interested in.

> come back?


Here I am. I never went away.

> You show me, and I'll kiss your ugly dog on 1st and Main St at high noon,
> and give you an hour to draw a crowd.


Looks like I'll have to buy a dog. Er, where exactly are 1st and Main
streets? There not on my map of Sydney

Cheers
Richard.


 
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Eric Bohlman
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Posts: n/a
 
      10-30-2003
"rf" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in
news:7u3ob.170906$(E-Mail Removed):

>> Now: then, (as part of the previous <div>) use a few thumbs (gif,
>> png, who cares) two columns; and CENTER the caption UNDER them...
>> (Centered! png's

> or
>> gif thumnbs centered on canvas and text centered under each, agreed?)
>> THEN, centered under it all, center text, with background left and

> right...
>> show me...

>
> Ah, finally something worthy of consideration. Took me a good 5
> minutes to solve this one
>
> http://users.bigpond.net.au/rf/test/pos/thumbs.html


[snip]

> Er, I just did, except for Opera, which I don't have to hand at the
> moment and NS, which I assume will work as Mozilla does. If it breaks
> in Opera either Opera is broken or we have an excercise for the
> student


Desired effect achieved in Opera 7.20.
 
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Hywel Jenkins
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-30-2003
In article <(E-Mail Removed) >, arbpen2003
@sbcglobal.net says...
> <movie="The Two Towers" character="Gollum">I hates Nested Tables! I
> hates them! I hates them!</movie>
>
> I've inherited a site that uses nested tables (4 deep) for
> presentation. Urgh! I hate debugging these things. I'm getting rid
> of them slowly but surely.
>
> Just had to get that off my chest.


Be thankful you don't have to de-frame this:
http://tinyurl.com/syyb

--
Hywel I do not eat quiche
http://hyweljenkins.co.uk/
http://hyweljenkins.co.uk/mfaq.php
 
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