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A simple question turns into badgering.....again

 
 
Richard
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      10-19-2003
Why is it when someone asks a simple question, and because brucie doesn't
like what the poster is asking about, it turns into a badgering affair?
"bender" asked a simple question as to why his menu wasn't working properly.
"brucie" turns around and chastises "bender" for using javascript and worse,
a drop down menu.
Then others chime in and badger "bender" even more.
This is not about helping someone, this is a personal vendetta about
personal dislikes which has no business in the thread.

Then brucie makes a comment about how 100 million people have their JS
turned off anyway.
I'd say that 95% of users don't even know how to turn it off.
Spend some time in 24hoursupport.helpdesk and you'll find out quickly just
how dumb and lazy people are.
Many of the questions asked can be answered by the user simply by clicking
on the menu bar and they won't even do that much.
"Duh, how do I set up a second mail account on my OE?"
"Duh, how did you do the first one?"

And as I have found over the years in various groups, there is always a
little cliche of "regulars" who always seem to say, if you're gonna use this
group, you do what we say or get the hell out.
Apparently, there are a few in this group with that same mentality.

Nobody put you in charge. You are here as a volunteer just as any poster is.
If you can't be helpful, say so.
Don't be tellin people they can't do this or that when 10,000 sites are
already doing it.
This is a discussion forum, not your personal badgering playground.

<end of rant>


 
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Kris
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      10-19-2003
In article <(E-Mail Removed)>, "Richard" <anom@anom>
wrote:

> This is a discussion forum, not your personal badgering playground.


This is not a helpdesk either. We are discussing. You disagree, fine,
that is your perogative. You want to shut up the discussion, go
elsewhere.

--
Kris
http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed)erlands (nl)
 
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Toby A Inkster
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      10-19-2003
Richard wrote:

> Then brucie makes a comment about how 100 million people have their JS
> turned off anyway.
> I'd say that 95% of users don't even know how to turn it off.


Then presumably 95% don't know how to turn it on either.

--
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
Contact Me - http://www.goddamn.co.uk/tobyink/?id=132

 
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David Dorward
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      10-19-2003
Richard wrote:

> Why is it when someone asks a simple question, and because brucie doesn't
> like what the poster is asking about, it turns into a badgering affair?


You are quite welcome to use your killfile.

> "bender" asked a simple question as to why his menu wasn't working
> properly. "brucie" turns around and chastises "bender" for using
> javascript and worse, a drop down menu.


It was a valid solution to the problem, even if it wasn't one you liked.

> Then others chime in and badger "bender" even more.
> This is not about helping someone, this is a personal vendetta about
> personal dislikes which has no business in the thread.


It seems to be turning in to an interesting disussion on the problems
involved in drop down menus. Give it time and some solutions might be
found.

> Then brucie makes a comment about how 100 million people have their JS
> turned off anyway.
> I'd say that 95% of users don't even know how to turn it off.


Brucie's comment has been backed up by statistics. I don't happen to believe
them, but its better then speculation based on ...

> Spend some time in 24hoursupport.helpdesk and you'll find out quickly just
> how dumb and lazy people are.


.... and this accounts for the proportion of the population who are able to
solve their own problems without asking for help - how?

> This is a discussion forum, not your personal badgering playground.


Pot. Kettle. Black.

--
David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/
 
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DU
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      10-19-2003
Richard wrote:

> Why is it when someone asks a simple question, and because brucie doesn't
> like what the poster is asking about, it turns into a badgering affair?


I read Brucie's replies and I entirely agree with Brucie's replies. All
I could say is that he is a bit crude at times but I absolutely support
his straightforward style.

> "bender" asked a simple question as to why his menu wasn't working properly.
> "brucie" turns around and chastises "bender" for using javascript and worse,
> a drop down menu.


Your opinion. Remember that there is no facial expression nor voice tone
which can be viewed or heard in usenet replies.

> Then others chime in and badger "bender" even more.
> This is not about helping someone, this is a personal vendetta about
> personal dislikes which has no business in the thread.
>
> Then brucie makes a comment about how 100 million people have their JS
> turned off anyway.
> I'd say that 95% of users don't even know how to turn it off.


Stats gathered from various independent sources kinda agree on this. At
least 12% have javascript disabled. I find DHTML menus not reliable for
other reasons: I can not test these thoroughly in various browsers. And
it is known that browsers implement differently the DHTML object model.

In any cases, since a site has to consider accessibility anyway, then
why not code <link> so that a browser Site Navigation bar will work,
create a sitemap file since you'll have to do this anyway (it's a WAI
guideline, I think) and maybe add a simple link indicating the relative
file position within the tree of the site. E.g.:

You are here: Home > Section X > Sub-section X1


> Spend some time in 24hoursupport.helpdesk and you'll find out quickly just
> how dumb and lazy people are.
> Many of the questions asked can be answered by the user simply by clicking
> on the menu bar and they won't even do that much.
> "Duh, how do I set up a second mail account on my OE?"
> "Duh, how did you do the first one?"
>


90% of all questions which were asked in this newsgroup yesterday could
have been answered by searching google.com, by reading FAQs and/or by
reading this newsgroup archives.
90% of all questions asked today in this newsgroup could be answered by
searching google.com, by reading FAQs and/or by reading this newsgroup
archives.
90% of all questions which will be asked in this newsgroup tomorrow
could be answered by searching google.com, by reading FAQs and/or by
reading this newsgroup archives.
So why do you perceive people answering questions as volunteers at your
service? alt.html is not a free 24 hours helpdesk.

> And as I have found over the years in various groups, there is always a
> little cliche of "regulars" who always seem to say, if you're gonna use this
> group, you do what we say or get the hell out.
> Apparently, there are a few in this group with that same mentality.
>


It may look that way. But then again, if you want the best available
answer that will cater for accessibility, usability, cross-browser
compatibility, compliance with web standards, etc... , then you'll often
hear the same answers: avoid frames, don't open new windows, don't
top-post, validate your documents with the W3C validator, don't use
"javascript:" in links, etc.. Most regulars do say what you'll read by
yourself and on your own in advanced tutorials (again available on the
web), in books, in W3C technical recommendations, etc..
That is unless you demand and expect "Krusty the Clown" or
"Krusty-burgers" answers and "Yeah.. just do <whatever>" replies.

> Nobody put you in charge. You are here as a volunteer just as any poster is.
> If you can't be helpful, say so.
> Don't be tellin people they can't do this or that when 10,000 sites are
> already doing it.
> This is a discussion forum, not your personal badgering playground.
>
> <end of rant>
>


DU
--
Javascript and Browser bugs:
http://www10.brinkster.com/doctorunclear/
- Resources, help and tips for Netscape 7.x users and Composer
- Interactive demos on Popup windows, music (audio/midi) in Netscape 7.x
http://www10.brinkster.com/doctorunc...e7Section.html

 
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JT
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Posts: n/a
 
      10-19-2003
Richard wrote:

> Why is it when someone asks a simple question, and because brucie doesn't
> like what the poster is asking about, it turns into a badgering affair?


Do what I do Richard, I look for David Doward to answer near the top of the
thread. If he does answer, he will direct you to where you can find out
exactly why you should not be doing it, but he does go on to answer the
question, even if its about frames, tables etc.


 
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Daniel R. Tobias
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Posts: n/a
 
      10-19-2003
Richard wrote:

> Why is it when someone asks a simple question, and because brucie doesn't
> like what the poster is asking about, it turns into a badgering affair?


Because this is a discussion forum, not a helpdesk?

--
== Dan ==
Dan's Mail Format Site: http://mailformat.dan.info/
Dan's Web Tips: http://webtips.dan.info/
Dan's Domain Site: http://domains.dan.info/

 
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TheKeith
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Posts: n/a
 
      10-19-2003

"Richard" <anom@anom> wrote in message news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> Why is it when someone asks a simple question, and because brucie doesn't
> like what the poster is asking about, it turns into a badgering affair?
> "bender" asked a simple question as to why his menu wasn't working

properly.
> "brucie" turns around and chastises "bender" for using javascript and

worse,
> a drop down menu.
> Then others chime in and badger "bender" even more.
> This is not about helping someone, this is a personal vendetta about
> personal dislikes which has no business in the thread.
>
> Then brucie makes a comment about how 100 million people have their JS
> turned off anyway.
> I'd say that 95% of users don't even know how to turn it off.
> Spend some time in 24hoursupport.helpdesk and you'll find out quickly just
> how dumb and lazy people are.
> Many of the questions asked can be answered by the user simply by clicking
> on the menu bar and they won't even do that much.
> "Duh, how do I set up a second mail account on my OE?"
> "Duh, how did you do the first one?"
>
> And as I have found over the years in various groups, there is always a
> little cliche of "regulars" who always seem to say, if you're gonna use

this
> group, you do what we say or get the hell out.
> Apparently, there are a few in this group with that same mentality.
>
> Nobody put you in charge. You are here as a volunteer just as any poster

is.
> If you can't be helpful, say so.
> Don't be tellin people they can't do this or that when 10,000 sites are
> already doing it.
> This is a discussion forum, not your personal badgering playground.
>
> <end of rant>


Hey Richard, although I agree with you whole heartedly about some of the
people in this group, I'm not entirely sure you're not as bad as they are.
Look at your reply to my ""language-javascript" - not validating" post right
up above. That was hardly helpful, if not downright obnoxious.


 
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Whitecrest
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Posts: n/a
 
      10-19-2003
In article <(E-Mail Removed)>, anom@anom says...
> Why is it when someone asks a simple question, and because brucie doesn't
> like what the poster is asking about, it turns into a badgering affair?
> "bender" asked a simple question as to why his menu wasn't working properly.
> "brucie" turns around and chastises "bender" for using javascript and worse,
> a drop down menu.....


Pretty simple actually. brucie want to make sure that the OP is aware
of this. Many newbies are not. And if you do not take it into
consideration then you could kill your own site before you even start.

If burcie tells the OP this, and they are taken back (like this OP was)
then that is a valid answer to his question. " How do you do it?" Well
the answer is "You might not do it now that you know this information."

So it is not badgering, he is answering the question with the answer he
believes is correct.

Or I could be totally off the wall and be was badgering, if so, welcome
to usenet....

--
Whitecrest Entertainment
www.whitecrestent.com
 
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Matthias Gutfeldt
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Posts: n/a
 
      10-19-2003
Richard schrieb:
> And as I have found over the years in various groups, there is always a
> little cliche of "regulars"


Ah! Clique Theory! Where's my link... here you are:
<http://world.std.com/~Infinity/rightloop/clique.htm>


> This is a discussion forum, not your personal badgering playground.


Then stop badgering. You're the only one who didn't like brucies helpful
reply.


Matthias
 
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