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Design Position by tables or CSS: Problem

 
 
news.frontiernet.net
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      10-03-2003
I have been usingtables to control screen position of content. It is easy to
concieve the design. It is easy to code. It is easy to troubleshoot. It is
easy to tweek code in a trial-and-error mode to find the most advantageous
presentation. There are facilities to help craft advanced layouts with
tables, such as FrontPage.

NOw, it is recommended that one NOT use tables for design control, but us
CSS positioning instead.

U . . huh . .. sure.

How?

A simple task like a header, then a two column presentation, follewed by a
footer, which is easy, quick and cross-browser using tables was a task that
after hours of reading and hours of attempting various codings, I gave up
on..

And all I attempted was the simple part, the two column presentation
followed by the footer. I didnt try to do the header which is tables
handling the javascript navigation.

How can anyone expect that a wide variety of people will ever be able to use
the CSS positioning if it is this obscure, this difficult, this prone to
cross-browser failure?

The quick and dirty example of this using TABLEs is at:
http://www.wgtn.net/Recreation/archery_tbl.htm

The version I was trying with CSS positioning and the <DIV> tag is at:
http://www.wgtn.net/Recreation/archery_div.htm

The CSS version has the footer, which shouldbe at the bottom of the page
following the two column presentation, but it iserroneously positioned ABOVE
it. And the page wont scroll for the visitor to see all of what is in the
left column. Jeez!

The CSS version has an outer container for the two columns using <Div
style="position: relative; top: 100px;">

On the CSS version, the left of the two columns is <Div class="leftpanel"
style="position: absolute; left: 10; width:200; overflow: auto;
border-style: double; background-color: ivory">

On the CSS version, the right of the two columns is <Div
style="position:absolute; left: 240; width:575;">

On the CSS version, the footer is <div style="position: absolute;">

Perhaps it is the nomenclature . . ie the wording that confuses me with
ABSOLUTE that is seemingly not absolute in a design sense and RELATIVE that
seems to indicate it positions with the flow, but apparently does not under
some, and obscure, circumstances.

Is there some simple thing I am missing here? OR are TABLES still the
easiest to implement, most sure footed, quickest to impliment, easiest to do
trial-and-error layout work with, most cross-browser, more easy to trouble
shoot and therefore should still be the design coding of preference?





 
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Beauregard T. Shagnasty
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      10-03-2003
news.frontiernet.net pounced upon this pigeonhole and pronounced:
> I have been usingtables to control screen position of content. It is easy to
> concieve the design. It is easy to code. It is easy to troubleshoot. It is
> easy to tweek code in a trial-and-error mode to find the most advantageous
> presentation. There are facilities to help craft advanced layouts with
> tables, such as FrontPage.
>
> NOw, it is recommended that one NOT use tables for design control, but us
> CSS positioning instead.
>
> U . . huh . .. sure.


It is just a different mindset. Once you are used to it, it becomes very
easy.

> How?
>
> A simple task like a header, then a two column presentation, follewed by a
> footer, which is easy, quick and cross-browser using tables was a task that
> after hours of reading and hours of attempting various codings, I gave up
> on..


Perhaps you could examine this simple template I made for a friend.
http://home.rochester.rr.com/bshagnasty/twocolumn.html
Feel free to snatch it. There's a link to the CSS on the page. With a bit
of tweaking, it should do nicely for your site. Notice, too, how it floats
no matter what your browser window size is, or your font size.

> And all I attempted was the simple part, the two column presentation
> followed by the footer. I didnt try to do the header which is tables
> handling the javascript navigation.


Oh dearô. What will the 10-20% of visitors do who have JavaScript
unavailable or turned off?

> How can anyone expect that a wide variety of people will ever be able to use
> the CSS positioning if it is this obscure, this difficult, this prone to
> cross-browser failure?


Take a look at the source of the page above. There is nothing obscure
about it, really. Works in just about any modern browser you might choose,
including text browsers.

> The quick and dirty example of this using TABLEs is at:
> http://www.wgtn.net/Recreation/archery_tbl.htm
>
> The version I was trying with CSS positioning and the <DIV> tag is at:
> http://www.wgtn.net/Recreation/archery_div.htm


<snip descriptions>

> Is there some simple thing I am missing here? OR are TABLES still the
> easiest to implement, most sure footed, quickest to impliment, easiest to do
> trial-and-error layout work with, most cross-browser, more easy to trouble
> shoot and therefore should still be the design coding of preference?


IMO, there is a lot more maintenance necessary for sites like yours and
mine if tables are used. A lot more coding...

--
-bts
-This space intentionally left blank.
 
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Davmagic .Com
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      10-03-2003

>From: http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed)
>(news.frontiernet.net)
>I have been usingtables to control screen
>position of content. It is easy to concieve
>the design. It is easy to code. It is easy to
>troubleshoot. It is easy to tweek code in a
>trial-and-error mode to find the most
>advantageous presentation.

<snip>
>Is there some simple thing I am missing
>here? OR are TABLES still the easiest to
>implement, most sure footed, quickest to
>impliment, easiest to do trial-and-error
>layout work with, most cross-browser,
>more easy to trouble shoot and therefore
>should still be the design coding of
>preference?


Stick with tables, if you want cross-browser compatability... browsers
are definately not ready for CSS...

Web Design-Magic-Painting-Junking-Games
INFO 2000 For You
http://www.davmagic.com
See how your webpages look on a MSN-TV Browser:
Download it here: http://developer.msntv.com/Tools/msntvvwr.asp

 
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William Tasso
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      10-03-2003
news.frontiernet.net wrote:
> ...
> Is there some simple thing I am missing here?


yep and you have the key word right there: simple.

the examples you are following are way too complex.

http://williamtasso.com/usenet/two-cols.html

--
William Tasso


 
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Sid Ismail
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      10-03-2003
On Fri, 03 Oct 2003 19:07:56 GMT, "news.frontiernet.net" <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:

: A simple task like a header, then a two column presentation, follewed by a
: footer, which is easy, quick and cross-browser using tables


Stick to it then. I do, and use CSS only when I have to...

Sid

 
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Davmagic .Com
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      10-03-2003

>From: (E-Mail Removed)lid
>(Beauregard*T.*Shagnasty)
>Perhaps you could examine this simple
>template I made for a friend.
>http://home.rochester.rr.com/bshagnasty/
>wocolumn.html


Just another example of hipprocracy... the <center> text is something
you (in another news group) exclaimed to be bad for readability!!! And
now I find you are using it here... what a joke!

Web Design-Magic-Painting-Junking-Games
INFO 2000 For You
http://www.davmagic.com
See how your webpages look on a MSN-TV Browser:
Download it here: http://developer.msntv.com/Tools/msntvvwr.asp

 
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David Dorward
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      10-03-2003
Davmagic .Com wrote:

>>http://home.rochester.rr.com/bshagnasty/twocolumn.html


> Just another example of hipprocracy... the <center> text is something
> you (in another news group) exclaimed to be bad for readability!!! And
> now I find you are using it here... what a joke!


I see two sections of centred text on that page. Neither are (IMO)
paragraphs (although one is marked up as such).

--
David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/
 
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David Dorward
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      10-03-2003
Davmagic .Com wrote:

> browsers are definately not ready for CSS...


Some browsers are not ready for CSS...

> MSN-TV Browser:


Yes, that's the one. Pity its broken really. How many people use it again?
Three?

--
David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/
 
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Davmagic .Com
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      10-03-2003
Reposted for correction:

>From: (E-Mail Removed)lid
>(Beauregard*T.*Shagnasty)
>Perhaps you could examine this simple
>template I made for a friend.
>http://home.rochester.rr.com/bshagnasty/t
>wocolumn.html


Just another example of hipprocracy... the <center> text is something
you (in another news group) exclaimed to be bad for readability!!! And
now I find you are using it here... what a joke!

Here's the referenced page (it got cut short in copy in my previous
post):

http://home.rochester.rr.com/bshagnasty/twocolumn.html

Web Design-Magic-Painting-Junking-Games
INFO 2000 For You
http://www.davmagic.com
See how your webpages look on a MSN-TV Browser:
Download it here: http://developer.msntv.com/Tools/msntvvwr.asp

 
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Beauregard T. Shagnasty
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-03-2003
Davmagic .Com pounced upon this pigeonhole and pronounced:
>
> >From: (E-Mail Removed)lid
> >(Beauregard*T.*Shagnasty)
> >Perhaps you could examine this simple template I made for a friend.
> >http://home.rochester.rr.com/bshagnasty/wocolumn.html

>
> Just another example of hipprocracy... the <center> text is something
> you (in another news group) exclaimed to be bad for readability!!! And
> now I find you are using it here... what a joke!


It must be your broken browser.

The only centered text in that template is the heading, the footer, and
the caption under the photo, where centering would be appropriate.

There is no centering for any of the content. Oh, maybe in your browser.
I'm sorry it doesn't render correctly for you and your two friends.

--
-bts
-This space intentionally left blank.
 
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