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Re: Website width for 800 x 600 pixel

 
 
Peter Swanson
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      08-08-2003
On Fri, 8 Aug 2003 11:06:52 -0700, "Augustus"
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>
>"Peter Swanson" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>news:(E-Mail Removed).. .
>> 1) I use this table to define the main structure of the webpage (two
>> columns, a narrow one on the left, a wide one on the right). This is
>> the first piece of html after the <body> tag.
>>
>> <table cellspacing="2" cellpadding="2">
>> <tr>
>> <td width="180"><img src="../images/1ptrans.gif" width=180
>> height=1 border=0></td>
>> <td width="20"><img src="../images/1ptrans.gif" width=20 height=1
>> border=0></td>
>> <td width="580"><img src="../images/1ptrans.gif" width=580
>> height=1 border=0></td>
>> </tr>
>>
>> On the computers we have here in 800 x 600 resolution, this page is
>> too wide, and has a horizontal scrollbar.
>>
>> Why?

>
>Because you are thinking that its 800 pixels wide... you aren't taking into
>account padding of the document or the scrollbar's width


OK, so there's padding in the table
4 for each column (2 at each side) = 12
2 between each cell = 4

Total 16.

Q1: How wide is the scroll bar?
Q2: What other padding is there?

TIA,
Peter
 
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William Tasso
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      08-08-2003
Peter Swanson wrote:
> On Fri, 8 Aug 2003 11:06:52 -0700, "Augustus"
> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>
>>
>> "Peter Swanson" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>> news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>>> ...
>>> On the computers we have here in 800 x 600 resolution, this page is
>>> too wide, and has a horizontal scrollbar.
>>>
>>> Why?

>>
>> Because you are thinking that its 800 pixels wide... you aren't
>> taking into account padding of the document or the scrollbar's width

>
> OK, so there's padding in the table
> 4 for each column (2 at each side) = 12
> 2 between each cell = 4
>
> Total 16.
>
> Q1: How wide is the scroll bar?
> Q2: What other padding is there?
>

good questions.

alternative answers here:
http://www.allmyfaqs.com/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?AnySizeDesign

--
William Tasso - http://WilliamTasso.com


 
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Jason Billingsley
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      08-08-2003
As a rule an 800 x 600 target should work across most browsers with no
horizontal scrollbar at 768 pixels wide.

-----
Java Shopping Cart - MerchantSpace
http://www.merchantspace.com
-----

On Fri, 8 Aug 2003 20:22:37 +0100, "William Tasso" <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:

>Peter Swanson wrote:
>> On Fri, 8 Aug 2003 11:06:52 -0700, "Augustus"
>> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> "Peter Swanson" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>>> news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>>>> ...
>>>> On the computers we have here in 800 x 600 resolution, this page is
>>>> too wide, and has a horizontal scrollbar.
>>>>
>>>> Why?
>>>
>>> Because you are thinking that its 800 pixels wide... you aren't
>>> taking into account padding of the document or the scrollbar's width

>>
>> OK, so there's padding in the table
>> 4 for each column (2 at each side) = 12
>> 2 between each cell = 4
>>
>> Total 16.
>>
>> Q1: How wide is the scroll bar?
>> Q2: What other padding is there?
>>

>good questions.
>
>alternative answers here:
>http://www.allmyfaqs.com/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?AnySizeDesign


 
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Jason Billingsley
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      08-08-2003
Yes, you caught me

When I refer to a "rule" it is a reference point usually. i.e. liquid
design is optimal in most situations, however we are now looking at
82%+ users above the 800x600 resolution. So, when I say 768 pixels, it
is the optimal starting point for a liquid design (if that is what one
wants to do).

-----
Java Shopping Cart - MerchantSpace
http://www.merchantspace.com
-----

On 8 Aug 2003 21:31:30 GMT, Sam Hughes <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>Jason Billingsley <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in
>news:(E-Mail Removed) :
>
>Top Posting FIXED.
>
>> On Fri, 8 Aug 2003 20:22:37 +0100, "William Tasso" <(E-Mail Removed)>>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>good questions.
>>>
>>>alternative answers here:
>>>http://www.allmyfaqs.com/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?AnySizeDesign

>>
>> As a rule an 800 x 600 target should work across most browsers with no
>> horizontal scrollbar at 768 pixels wide.

>
>You say "rule," but shouldn't you mean exception? Are "most" browsers
>maximized? Of those that are, what about 1024x768 monitors? You get all
>this empty space with them! Or worse, the user gets a horizontal
>scrollbar, and is _forced_ to maximize his/her window to remove it.
>
>What if a maximized, 800x600 user has their "Explorer Bar" open, looking
>at history or favorites?
>
>How does a website fixed at a width of 768 pixels do when accessed by a
>user with a 640x480 resolution? Or how about by a portable device?
>
>The simple fact is, the only time a 768 pixel-wide design is convenient
>for the user is in _one_special_case_. And that is with a maximized,
>800x600 browser window, with the explorer bar closed, with the Office
>toolbar off, and with the start menu at the top or bottom. And that is
>pretty uncommon.
>
>Because a flexible design serves _virtually_every_ user, I don't see why
>fixed-width designs are considered at all.


 
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Richard Cornford
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      08-09-2003
"Peter Swanson" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
<snip>
> OK, so there's padding in the table
> 4 for each column (2 at each side) = 12
> 2 between each cell = 4
>
> Total 16.
>
> Q1: How wide is the scroll bar?


On Window OS the scroll bar can be any size the user wants it to be,
down to about 8 pixels. The active/inactive window borders may also
contribute and can also be any size the user wants.

> Q2: What other padding is there?


Have you considered default padding and margins on BODY and HTML
elements? Different browsers use default padding or margin on at least
one of those. Exact values vary with the browser and may be subject
modification with user style sheets.

Richard.


 
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spaghetti
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      08-09-2003

> The simple fact is, the only time a 768 pixel-wide design is convenient
> for the user is in _one_special_case_. And that is with a maximized,
> 800x600 browser window, with the explorer bar closed, with the Office
> toolbar off, and with the start menu at the top or bottom. And that is
> pretty uncommon.


I don't think this issue is that clear-cut. I mean nobody takes into account
that it's proven to be uncomfortable to read columns of text wider than 5 or
so inches. :/

So even if you make a full-width page, most users are gonna shrink their
browser windows down to a comfortable reading width anyway.

I don't think there's a "zen" approach to this yet.


 
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Isofarro
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      08-09-2003
Jason Billingsley wrote:

> Yes, you caught me


Topposting again - yup.

> When I refer to a "rule" it is a reference point usually. i.e. liquid
> design is optimal in most situations, however we are now looking at
> 82%+ users above the 800x600 resolution.


And how many of those 82% of users don't have office installed, have a top
or bottom placed taskbar, have their browsers maximised, and don't have any
sidebars such as bookmarks or history visible?

With that in mind, the 82% number is vastly overstated, and could be as low
as 42%.




--
Iso.
FAQs: http://html-faq.com http://alt-html.org http://allmyfaqs.com/
Recommended Hosting: http://www.affordablehost.com/
Web Standards: http://www.webstandards.org/
 
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William Tasso
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      08-09-2003
Isofarro wrote:
> spaghetti wrote:
>
>
>> So even if you make a full-width page, most users are gonna shrink
>> their browser windows down to a comfortable reading width anyway.

>
> That's good, since then each user can set their preferred content
> width for maximum readability.


which will be different for scanning as opposed to reading.

--
William Tasso - http://WilliamTasso.com


 
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Isofarro
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      08-09-2003
spaghetti wrote:

>
>> The simple fact is, the only time a 768 pixel-wide design is convenient
>> for the user is in _one_special_case_. And that is with a maximized,
>> 800x600 browser window, with the explorer bar closed, with the Office
>> toolbar off, and with the start menu at the top or bottom. And that is
>> pretty uncommon.

>
> I don't think this issue is that clear-cut. I mean nobody takes into
> account that it's proven to be uncomfortable to read columns of text wider
> than 5 or so inches. :/


So use the max-width style in ems in your CSS. A fixed width keylock doesn't
give you the solution you seek, since the optimal reading width is
dependant on font-size, not screen resolution or screen width.


> So even if you make a full-width page, most users are gonna shrink their
> browser windows down to a comfortable reading width anyway.


That's good, since then each user can set their preferred content width for
maximum readability.


--
Iso.
FAQs: http://html-faq.com http://alt-html.org http://allmyfaqs.com/
Recommended Hosting: http://www.affordablehost.com/
Web Standards: http://www.webstandards.org/
 
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Peter Swanson
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      08-09-2003
Sam Hughes <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message news:<Xns93D1B4E6DD166samreid@130.133.1.4>...
> Jason Billingsley <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in
> news:(E-Mail Removed):
>
> Top Posting FIXED.
>
> > On Fri, 8 Aug 2003 20:22:37 +0100, "William Tasso" <(E-Mail Removed)>>
> > wrote:
> >
> >>good questions.
> >>
> >>alternative answers here:
> >>http://www.allmyfaqs.com/cgi-bin/wiki.pl?AnySizeDesign

> >
> > As a rule an 800 x 600 target should work across most browsers with no
> > horizontal scrollbar at 768 pixels wide.

>
> You say "rule," but shouldn't you mean exception? Are "most" browsers
> maximized? Of those that are, what about 1024x768 monitors? You get all
> this empty space with them! Or worse, the user gets a horizontal
> scrollbar, and is _forced_ to maximize his/her window to remove it.
>
> What if a maximized, 800x600 user has their "Explorer Bar" open, looking
> at history or favorites?
>
> How does a website fixed at a width of 768 pixels do when accessed by a
> user with a 640x480 resolution? Or how about by a portable device?
>
> The simple fact is, the only time a 768 pixel-wide design is convenient
> for the user is in _one_special_case_. And that is with a maximized,
> 800x600 browser window, with the explorer bar closed, with the Office
> toolbar off, and with the start menu at the top or bottom. And that is
> pretty uncommon.
>
> Because a flexible design serves _virtually_every_ user, I don't see why
> fixed-width designs are considered at all.


Thanks for all the input so far.

If I go to a flexible design (i.e. fixed width columns on the left,
but a flexible right hand column), how do you cope with the users with
high screen resolutions? The text line lengths can become excessively
long. Can you make the design flexible, but with a maximum width? I
realise you can rig a minimum width by using a transparent graphic.

TIA,
Peter
 
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