Re: plaintext

>> >
>> Simply that such an affectation pursued to the degree in your example,
>detracts (well, it
>> soit'nly detracted *me*) from the message the "poem" was trying to convey
>so much that
>> all I could see and all I can recall was the construction. The mind
>boggles as to the
>> results were the author not limited to the width of one page.
>>
>
>sorry to hear you didn't enjoy the piece that was presented.
>
>as with many modern poems, the poem was not "trying to convey" a "message".
>form is not an affectation but an extension of the content; they are
>inseparable.
If it was not trying to convey a message (and there has to be a word better than
"message") then the whole thing was a complete and utter waste of time and effort; one may
as well send any form of textual characters, in any order - indeed, in any language.
The term "message" involves the concept of communication; if all that is communicated is
that the idea that the originator has a sticky TAB key, well....
>
>many poems are not linear; instead they are expressions, projections of
>sensory perceptions.
Conveying that is the message.
asking for a "message" in a poem is like asking "what
>does a dragonfly mean?" or "what does a symphony mean?" - there is no
>answer. there is only experience.
Ooops, I seem to have strayed into the alt.zen group. 'scuse me while I go away and
practise clapping with one hand.

FatBlokeOnBikepins@pinsmother-truckers.co.uk

..
Oh dear, an apostle...

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

Beg your pudding while I add to my killfile.

On Mon, 23 Jun 2003 02:03:23 GMT, "Denise Enck" <> wrote:

><> wrote in message
>news:.. .
>> >
>> >sorry to hear you didn't enjoy the piece that was presented.
>> >
>> >as with many modern poems, the poem was not "trying to convey" a
>"message".
>> >form is not an affectation but an extension of the content; they are
>> >inseparable.
>> If it was not trying to convey a message (and there has to be a word
>better than
>> "message") then the whole thing was a complete and utter waste of time and
>effort; one may
>> as well send any form of textual characters, in any order - indeed, in any
>language.
>> The term "message" involves the concept of communication; if all that is
>communicated is
>> that the idea that the originator has a sticky TAB key, well....
>
>words do not always send a "message" though they may indeed communicate. the
>form also communicates.
>think of this: your words above take the form of sentences & communicate a
>certain thing.
>in another form the same words - even in the same sequence - may convey
>something else completely.
>
>modern, postmodern, & experimental poetry, unlike other (for example,
>traditional) poetry, are not didactic or linear.
>
>much contemporary poetry - as most art - is about making connections between
>things not usually connected, making discoveries; it is proprioceptive,
>organic & doesn't fit into pre-existing forms (however, that is not to say
>that sonnets & villanelles, for example, are not still written sometimes).
>Some of the best poetry since WWII has been influenced by other modern arts,
>such as painting, sculpture, & jazz. It is most often not presented in
>traditional forms such as neat stanzas with each line beginning with a
>capital letter & bumped agains the left margin....the way you (& most of us)
>probably read poetry back in school.
>
>what is not possible is an equation such as:
>this poem = this meaning
>poems are not a code to be broken or a riddle to be solved. they may
>communicate, they may have a message, but they are not encrypted - they can
>only exist as they are.
>
>what is the message of a Jackson Pollock painting or of a Coltrane tune?
>They are to be experienced - you can't ascribe a particular "meaning" or
>"message" to either. The same is true for poetry.
>
>> >many poems are not linear; instead they are expressions, projections
>of
>> >sensory perceptions.
>> Conveying that is the message.
>> asking for a "message" in a poem is like asking "what
>> >does a dragonfly mean?" or "what does a symphony mean?" - there is no
>> >answer. there is only experience.
>> Ooops, I seem to have strayed into the alt.zen group. 'scuse me while I
>go away and
>> practise clapping with one hand.
>
>Yes, a study of Zen would certainly shed light on modern poetics, much of
>which has been influenced (especially since the 1950s) either directly, or
>indirectly, by Buddhism and other Eastern philosophies.
>
>if you are interested in learning more about modern poetry & open forms, I
>would suggest:
>http://unix.cc.wmich.edu/~cooneys/poems/proj.verse.html projective verse
>http://www.corpse.org/issue_4/critic...es/ferling.htm Lawrence
>Ferlinghetti's essay on modern poetics - especially wonderful is his "What
>is Poetry?"
>http://epc.buffalo.edu/authors/ click on any of the links for poems by some
>of the best-known modern poets
>http://www.emptymirrorbooks.com/ excellent resource for Beat Generation &
>modern poetry books & information including poems
>
>as this has veered waaayyyy away from the subject of "acceptable uses of the
><pre> tag," if you would like to discuss modern poetics further please feel
>free to drop me an email ~
>
>cheers ~
>Denise
>
>

<FatBlokeOnBikepins> wrote in message
news:...
> .
> Oh dear, an apostle...
>
> There are none so blind as those who will not see.
>
> Beg your pudding while I add to my killfile.
>
> On Mon, 23 Jun 2003 02:03:23 GMT, "Denise Enck" wrote:
>
> ><> wrote in message
> >news:.. .
> >> >
> >> >sorry to hear you didn't enjoy the piece that was presented.
> >> >
> >> >as with many modern poems, the poem was not "trying to convey" a
> >"message".
> >> >form is not an affectation but an extension of the content; they
are
> >> >inseparable.
> >> If it was not trying to convey a message (and there has to be a word
> >better than
> >> "message") then the whole thing was a complete and utter waste of
time and
> >effort; one may
> >> as well send any form of textual characters, in any order - indeed,
in any
> >language.
> >> The term "message" involves the concept of communication; if all
that is
> >communicated is
> >> that the idea that the originator has a sticky TAB key, well....
> >
> >words do not always send a "message" though they may indeed
communicate. the
> >form also communicates.
> >think of this: your words above take the form of sentences &
communicate a
> >certain thing.
> >in another form the same words - even in the same sequence - may
convey
> >something else completely.
> >
> >modern, postmodern, & experimental poetry, unlike other (for example,
> >traditional) poetry, are not didactic or linear.
> >
> >much contemporary poetry - as most art - is about making connections
between
> >things not usually connected, making discoveries; it is
proprioceptive,
> >organic & doesn't fit into pre-existing forms (however, that is not to
say
> >that sonnets & villanelles, for example, are not still written
sometimes).
> >Some of the best poetry since WWII has been influenced by other modern
arts,
> >such as painting, sculpture, & jazz. It is most often not presented in
> >traditional forms such as neat stanzas with each line beginning with a
> >capital letter & bumped agains the left margin....the way you (& most
of us)
> >probably read poetry back in school.
> >
> >what is not possible is an equation such as:
> >this poem = this meaning
> >poems are not a code to be broken or a riddle to be solved. they may
> >communicate, they may have a message, but they are not encrypted -
they can
> >only exist as they are.
> >
> >what is the message of a Jackson Pollock painting or of a Coltrane
tune?
> >They are to be experienced - you can't ascribe a particular "meaning"
or
> >"message" to either. The same is true for poetry.
> >
> >> >many poems are not linear; instead they are expressions,
projections
> >of
> >> >sensory perceptions.
> >> Conveying that is the message.
> >> asking for a "message" in a poem is like asking "what
> >> >does a dragonfly mean?" or "what does a symphony mean?" - there
is no
> >> >answer. there is only experience.
> >> Ooops, I seem to have strayed into the alt.zen group. 'scuse me
while I
> >go away and
> >> practise clapping with one hand.
> >
> >Yes, a study of Zen would certainly shed light on modern poetics, much
of
> >which has been influenced (especially since the 1950s) either
directly, or
> >indirectly, by Buddhism and other Eastern philosophies.
> >
> >if you are interested in learning more about modern poetry & open
forms, I
> >would suggest:
> >http://unix.cc.wmich.edu/~cooneys/poems/proj.verse.html projective
verse
> >http://www.corpse.org/issue_4/critic...es/ferling.htm Lawrence
> >Ferlinghetti's essay on modern poetics - especially wonderful is his
"What
> >is Poetry?"
> >http://epc.buffalo.edu/authors/ click on any of the links for poems by
some
> >of the best-known modern poets
> >http://www.emptymirrorbooks.com/ excellent resource for Beat
Generation &
> >modern poetry books & information including poems
> >
> >as this has veered waaayyyy away from the subject of "acceptable uses
of the
> ><pre> tag," if you would like to discuss modern poetics further please
feel
> >free to drop me an email ~
> >
> >cheers ~
> >Denise
> >

whatever....

and PLEASE do not top-post here! if you do so, it is you who will
undoubtedly be killfiled by many in this group.

best,
Denise

"Denise Enck" <> wrote:

[huge snip]

>and PLEASE do not top-post here! if you do so, it is you who will
>undoubtedly be killfiled by many in this group.

Before you start lecturing others: there's one thing worse than top
posting: bottom posting without snipping (as you are doing).


Headless