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good IDE for java

 
 
Adie
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      12-12-2005
On Mon, 12 Dec 2005 09:11:48 GMT, Alex Molochnikov wrote:
> "Adie" <adie@oh-****.com> wrote in message


>> ...I certianly wouldnt want to use a java windows app on
>> a regular basis, theyre for the most part ugly and usually insufferably
>> sluggish.

>
> You either encountered poorly designed applications, or your negative
> experience stems from the pre-1.5 Java GUI. Sun was making steady progress,
> improving Swing performance, and as of Java 1.5 (actually, even 1.4.2) the
> GUI response is quite comparable with the native apps.


So we've had the insuferably poor performance for how many years? And it's
*just* improved in 1.5? Comparable to a Delphi, VC++ or heaven help us; a
VB application?

>> Keep java on the server if you dont mind a maintenance reboot
>> every 2 weeks, and it's not bad for web apps - fantastic for comp-sci 101.

>
> If the server runs Windoze - the weekly (never mind by-weekly) reboot is a
> fact of life. Whether the app is written in Java or any other platform is
> immaterial. The crap comes from M$ OS.


All 400+ of our servers are Linux boxes.

>> Although 'real' applications arent written in java, and 'real' engineers
>> don't work with java as there's *always* a more suitable and elegant
>> solution.

>
> "Real programmers don't eat quiche". Statements of this kind are a hallmark
> of immature wizkids that hold on to this belief until they get into the
> 'real' world. Then they quickly discover that:


Hey, very much real world here sweetums, we have Java developers falling
outa the cracks in the walls - several hundred of 'em. I get the pleasure
of writing the damn specs and project managing the buggers - used to have
the pleasure of writing the damn code and being managed.

> a. lots of 'real' aplications are written in Java (Oracle Management Tools,
> for a quick reference)


And it sucks. You cant hold that pile of poop up surely? It's horrible.
Mind you, what's the Oracle server written in? Java, nah.

> b. 'real' engineers work with what is most suitable for the task at hand. If
> the task calls for a robust, OO, cross-platform, multi-vendor solution, Java
> is the way. If the task calls for a distributed, or web-based solution, Java
> is the _best_ way.


Cross-platform, multi-vendor screams C++ with a framework of choice, to me.

Distributed, then yes, with app-servers and DB support Java becomes a
potent tool.

Web apps? Anthing .NET kicks Java squarely in the teeth.

Can you tell I dont like Java
 
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Daniel Dyer
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      12-12-2005
On Mon, 12 Dec 2005 17:09:46 -0000, Adie <adie@oh-****.com> wrote:
> All 400+ of our servers are Linux boxes.
>
>>> Although 'real' applications arent written in java, and 'real'
>>> engineers
>>> don't work with java as there's *always* a more suitable and elegant
>>> solution.

>>
>> "Real programmers don't eat quiche". Statements of this kind are a
>> hallmark
>> of immature wizkids that hold on to this belief until they get into the
>> 'real' world. Then they quickly discover that:

>
> Hey, very much real world here sweetums, we have Java developers falling
> outa the cracks in the walls - several hundred of 'em. I get the pleasure
> of writing the damn specs and project managing the buggers - used to have
> the pleasure of writing the damn code and being managed.


So you're aware that there is an awful lot of Java development in the real
world, which raises the question: If they're not "real engineers" and not
writing "real applications", just what are these several hundred Java
developers doing for you?

> Web apps? Anthing .NET kicks Java squarely in the teeth.


But not, I would guess, when you can only host the web apps on your
400+ Linux servers.

Dan.

--
Daniel Dyer
http://www.dandyer.co.uk
 
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Scott Ellsworth
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      12-12-2005
In article <(E-Mail Removed). com>,
http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed) wrote:

> so why don't you tell us why java apps aren't mainstream. And do so in
> a way that won't make you a troll by your own undocumented definition
> of the word.


Half the apps I regularly use, both custom and in wide distribution, are
written in Java. These do a combination of computational biology,
database management, or numerical analysis, plus, of course, software
development. They perform well enough - usually, they are network,
database, or IO bound.

Once that happens, your implementation language does not really matter,
save insofar as it lets you build better products, build products more
quickly, or maintain existing products more effictively. Java seems to
hit the mark for most of these.

> or is it that anybody that dares claim that java apps aren't mainstream
> is a heretic


Nope. Anyone who makes claims about Java that do not match the real
world experience of the people here is considered a likely troll.
Especially if they are anonymous.

There is credibility to a real name and company. If you also make
unambiguous testable statements, like 'Java can be used successfully for
computational biology,' then people have some idea of what you know.
For us, it lets others know just what spaces our consulting group works
in. Sure, I could like about who I work for, but then there is not much
point.

Scott

--
Scott Ellsworth
(E-Mail Removed)
Java and database consulting for the life sciences
 
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Scott Ellsworth
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      12-12-2005
In article <AL7nf.96031$Eq5.18968@pd7tw1no>,
"Alex Molochnikov" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:(E-Mail Removed) oups.com...
> > Many used Eclipse as their favourite free one, and then later buy
> > IntelliJ IDEA for its refactoring abilities like changing variable
> > names.

>
> Eclipse has these features. IDEA may have other advantages (just a
> supposition on my part, since I never used it), but refactoring ain't it.


IDEA had, last time I checked, a better set of refactoring tools. I
need to check again, as IDEA bumped to version 5 in the same time frame
that Eclipse went to version 3.1, and both added more cookies. That
said, at the time, the IDEA refactorings went beyond what Eclipse
provided by default at the time.

For me, the big win of IDEA was that the workspace, project files,
module files, etc., were all XML, so I could generate the entire set of
150 interlocked projects for one of my clients with just one command.
Dependency changes, moved projects, etc, all were pretty painless.

Eclipse allows the .project/.classpath files to be created by hand, but
there is no way to create a workspace save through a manual process in
the IDE. Perhaps the buckminster project will change this.

Scott

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Scott Ellsworth
(E-Mail Removed)
Java and database consulting for the life sciences
 
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Roedy Green
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      12-12-2005
On Mon, 12 Dec 2005 17:09:46 GMT, Adie <adie@oh-****.com> wrote,
quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :

>So we've had the insuferably poor performance for how many years? And it's
>*just* improved in 1.5? Comparable to a Delphi, VC++ or heaven help us; a
>VB application?


use an AOT compiler. You have not examined that and I predict you will
continue to. You are about proving Java bad rather than solving a real
world problem.

see http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jet.html and prove me wrong.

The problems with Java are start up of the JVM. Sun is not interested
in speeding that up since nobody cares how long a server takes to
waddle to its feet, only how fast it is day after day once it is
running.
--
Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching.
 
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Roedy Green
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      12-12-2005
On 12 Dec 2005 06:14:26 -0800, (E-Mail Removed) wrote, quoted
or indirectly quoted someone who said :

>oh no, the java police. and they call names too. .


Shut up you asshole. Do an experiment. That would be interesting.
Your idiotic ramblings based on nothing but reading propaganda are
worthless.

--
Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching.
 
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Alex Molochnikov
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      12-12-2005
"Daniel Dyer" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news(E-Mail Removed)...
> The Oracle Management Tools are far from being a good example of desktop
> Java applications. They really are unpleasant.


My respondent complained about the lack of "real" applications in Java. I
offered one example - first that came to my mind. Whether or not it is
pleasant to work with, is:

1. in the eye of beholder, and
2. has nothing to do with the fact that it is real, and Java.


 
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Alex Molochnikov
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      12-12-2005
"Adie" <adie@oh-****.com> wrote in message
news:kokf4u48m6ko$.gm4z5thgx6zm$(E-Mail Removed)...
> Can you tell I dont like Java


I can. I should have also recognized that you are just another Java-bashing
troll, using this thread to spread FUD about Java, while having no real
knowledge/experience in the subject.

My bad.


 
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Luc The Perverse
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      12-13-2005
"Roedy Green" <(E-Mail Removed) > wrote in
message news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> see http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jet.html and prove me wrong.


Your benchmarks link http://www.excelsior-usa.com/jetbench.html is broken

You can update the link with this one
http://www.excelsior-usa.com/jetbenchjfcmark.html

--
LTP




 
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Luc The Perverse
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      12-13-2005
<(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed) ps.com...
> google "java is slow" 21,200 results
> google "java is fast" 1,100 results
>
> this is all common experience. Maybe Java has improved, but I can be
> excused for being skeptical!


Results 1 - 100 of about 8,770,000 for java is slow. (0.34 seconds)

Results 1 - 100 of about 30,600,000 for java is fast. (0.21 seconds)

???

Also I hardly think a number of results for a google search is highly
conclusive indicator of something's truth.

OMG OMG OMG!!!!!

about 61,800,000 for cancer is good. (0.54 seconds)

about 23,600,000 for cancer is bad. (0.13 seconds)

--
LTP




 
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