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good IDE for java

 
 
Alex Molochnikov
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      12-12-2005
"Adie" <adie@oh-****.com> wrote in message
news:mmtcsc5h678k.1gpczrj3rkj0o$(E-Mail Removed)...
> ...I certianly wouldnt want to use a java windows app on
> a regular basis, theyre for the most part ugly and usually insufferably
> sluggish.


You either encountered poorly designed applications, or your negative
experience stems from the pre-1.5 Java GUI. Sun was making steady progress,
improving Swing performance, and as of Java 1.5 (actually, even 1.4.2) the
GUI response is quite comparable with the native apps.

> Keep java on the server if you dont mind a maintenance reboot
> every 2 weeks, and it's not bad for web apps - fantastic for comp-sci 101.


If the server runs Windoze - the weekly (never mind by-weekly) reboot is a
fact of life. Whether the app is written in Java or any other platform is
immaterial. The crap comes from M$ OS.

> Although 'real' applications arent written in java, and 'real' engineers
> don't work with java as there's *always* a more suitable and elegant
> solution.


"Real programmers don't eat quiche". Statements of this kind are a hallmark
of immature wizkids that hold on to this belief until they get into the
'real' world. Then they quickly discover that:

a. lots of 'real' aplications are written in Java (Oracle Management Tools,
for a quick reference)
b. 'real' engineers work with what is most suitable for the task at hand. If
the task calls for a robust, OO, cross-platform, multi-vendor solution, Java
is the way. If the task calls for a distributed, or web-based solution, Java
is the _best_ way.

Alex Molochnikov
Gestalt Corporation


 
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IchBin
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      12-12-2005
Adie wrote:
> On Mon, 12 Dec 2005 05:19:28 GMT, Alex Molochnikov wrote:
>> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message

>
>>> You don't want any application written in java

>> For someone who, by his own admission, does not use Java, this statement
>> rings hollow.

>
> It's a fair comment, I certianly wouldnt want to use a java windows app on
> a regular basis, theyre for the most part ugly and usually insufferably
> sluggish. Keep java on the server if you dont mind a maintenance reboot
> every 2 weeks, and it's not bad for web apps - fantastic for comp-sci 101.
> Although 'real' applications arent written in java, and 'real' engineers
> don't work with java as there's *always* a more suitable and elegant
> solution.
>


Everybody lives in their own world or company and do what they known. I
have worked at a lot of companies. I would recommend that you do the
same because maturity is a funny thing..

--


Thanks in Advance...
IchBin, Pocono Lake, Pa, USA
http://weconsultants.servebeer.com/JHackerAppManager
__________________________________________________ ________________________

'If there is one, Knowledge is the "Fountain of Youth"'
-William E. Taylor, Regular Guy (1952-)
 
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q_q_anonymous@yahoo.co.uk
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      12-12-2005

From: "" <(E-Mail Removed)>
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.programmerSubject: Re: good IDE for java
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2005 02:30:56 -0800

Roedy Green wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Dec 2005 22:51:02 -0000, "dwiz" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote,
> quoted or indirectly quoted someone who said :
>
> >It's not that strange... Java IDEs are sluggish.

>
> Please be specific when you tar like that. It is quite improper to
> tar products you have never even used.
> --


many have experienced that! JBuilder for example. You could google
jbuilder sluggish or google "jbuilder is slow" then google "jbuilder
is fast". When I used it in 2002, it was too bloated to run on the
computers of the time. it's slow because it was written in java.

google "java is slow" 21,200 results
google "java is fast" 1,100 results

this is all common experience. Maybe Java has improved, but I can be
excused for being skeptical!

Nobody should need to cite examples of java being slow. It's just
obvious. I don't recall any 'big' java app or any small java app even,
that i've liked or kept!! Azeureus , Jbuilder, People avoid java
apps!!

Actually, I just googled mainstream java apps and the cloest match I
found was a webpage saying "There are very few mainstream Java desktop
applications" google's Usenet archive offered as a close match, a
post from 1998 asking why java apps hadn't gone mainstream given the
millions of java programmers!

 
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Roedy Green
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      12-12-2005
On 12 Dec 2005 02:37:44 -0800, http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed) wrote, quoted
or indirectly quoted someone who said :

>google "java is slow" 21,200 results
>google "java is fast" 1,100 results
>
>this is all common experience. Maybe Java has improved, but I can be
>excused for being skeptical.


You are a waste of time. You post anonymously. You don't even bother
to do an experiment before repeating trolls.
--
Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
http://mindprod.com Java custom programming, consulting and coaching.
 
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J. Verdrengh
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      12-12-2005
Java program startup is slow. As a java program starts, it unzips the java
libraries and compiles parts of itself, so an interactive program can be
sluggish for the first couple seconds of use.
This approaches being a reasonable explanation for the speed myth. But while
it might explain user's impressions, it does not explain why many
programmers (who can easily understand the idea of an interpreted program
being compiled) share the belief.

(c) http://www.idiom.com/~zilla/Computer...benchmark.html


 
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q_q_anonymous@yahoo.co.uk
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      12-12-2005

J. Verdrengh wrote:
> Java program startup is slow. As a java program starts, it unzips the java
> libraries and compiles parts of itself, so an interactive program can be
> sluggish for the first couple seconds of use.
> This approaches being a reasonable explanation for the speed myth. But while
> it might explain user's impressions, it does not explain why many
> programmers (who can easily understand the idea of an interpreted program
> being compiled) share the belief.
>
> (c) http://www.idiom.com/~zilla/Computer...benchmark.html


Slow startup is rather serious. Programmers understand that java does a
lot more behind the scenes than other languages. And when jars are
used, there's the decompression issue on startup. These although
understood, are not tolerated timewise using a C++ alternative exists!!
It may well be that java is nicer for some to program in. But Using
the app is another matter.

That theoretical test at the link didn't check bulky applications.
Practice shows they kludge along.

That article provides a very weak explanation at the end, that java
isn't really so slow it's all down down to psychology!!

Had they asked people that have tried java applications for specific
reasons why they gave up on them. Then you'll start to see concrete
reasons. Not human psychology.
And these reasons only apply to java apps. Or, apply to java apps
moreso than to C++ apps.

It's possible that now java runs faster - though not as fast as C++.
But because java with swing was so slow in the past, it has that
stigma, that bad reputation, so people see java apps and download the
other one! I haven't tried many java apps recently because of past
experience of java programs. Though actually, a recent java app I
tried was a complete nuisance - GUI wise. Azureus

The app did things that a regular Windows GUI would never do. Because
sometimes the java GUI components aren't quite right. People tend not
to find the right standard components The find a component with issues
or bugs.
I recall programming a GUI in java where you coulc click and drag the
contents of one box into another. It took me a long time to look for
the right component, but I never found exactly the right one, and I
remember having to do some ridiculous workarounds. FWIW it was a team
project - i.e. not just me. A Standard windows component like in VB
wouldn't have had the problem I ran into in the click and drag.

So, that's just yet another reason why java programs haven't taken
off. The GUI components have issues.

Plus i'm quite sure that java programs use more memory. the bigger the
program, the more memory it takes up.

I remember lecturers unable to do their presentation because running 2
big java apps at the same time was too much for their computer.
Everybody in the hall knew it was java. THat wouldn't have happened had
the prgorams been C++.

 
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zero
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      12-12-2005
(E-Mail Removed) wrote in news:1134383864.593353.5500
@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

>
> many have experienced that! JBuilder for example. You could google
> jbuilder sluggish or google "jbuilder is slow" then google "jbuilder
> is fast". When I used it in 2002, it was too bloated to run on the
> computers of the time. it's slow because it was written in java.


I tried JBuilder several years ago, and it was slow. I haven't tried the
newest version though.

In contrast, I have only tried eclipse very recently, and I found it to be
fast enough.

I believe you are suffering from the same illness that so many IT people
have: you're fixed in your beliefs and don't want to be convinced that
there are nuances. Just like many believe the dogma "Windows bad, Linux
good" without looking at the facts (which are that with each subsequent
release, the difference becomes smaller), you are holding on to the belief
that Java is too slow for the real world. Not long ago, I saw two school
projects about genetic algorithms. Both did more or less the same, but one
was written in Java, the other in C++ (with Borland Builder). The Java one
was faster.

This of course had to do with the coding - both were done well, but the
Java implementation used HashMaps to store and retreive data, while the C++
one used StringLists. The point is however that you can't just say Java is
slow without looking at the facts - and not facts from 3 years ago, as you
did in your post.

--
Beware the False Authority Syndrome
 
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q_q_anonymous@yahoo.co.uk
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      12-12-2005

Roedy Green wrote:
> On 12 Dec 2005 02:37:44 -0800, (E-Mail Removed) wrote, quoted
> or indirectly quoted someone who said :
>
> >google "java is slow" 21,200 results
> >google "java is fast" 1,100 results
> >
> >this is all common experience. Maybe Java has improved, but I can be
> >excused for being skeptical.

>
> You are a waste of time.


you are 1 person saying so. So you agree with the whole

>You post anonymously. You don't even bother
> to do an experiment before repeating trolls.
> --


oh no, the java police. and they call names too. . Name-calling helps
to win arguments if your audience are a bunch of fools. I guess you
consider yourself a leader of lemmings, pointing out trolls so the
helpless ppl(pimples) don't get lost like lemmings.

so why don't you tell us why java apps aren't mainstream. And do so in
a way that won't make you a troll by your own undocumented definition
of the word.

or is it that anybody that dares claim that java apps aren't mainstream
is a heretic

Oh, you don't like me posting in a way that is semantically anonymous.
If I had called myself FlintBlah or PotOfSoup like many people call
themselves maybe that'd be better for you, that is less anonymous, is
it? 'cos that'd really gives away my identity! Or if I used a fake
name like many people do, that'd be ok, i wouldn't be anonymous
anymore, and you be any wiser(or less wise) .

you should really see the stupidity in your reasoning.

or are you one of those guys that in order not to be too anonymous,
likes to put all his ideas and thoughts on his t-shirt. It's mostly
teenagers that do that. Thouigh some immature adults do too.

I don't subscribe to that camp

You should be experienced enough to know that a person that uses their
name on usenet isn't necessary making a useful contribution. Likewise,
a person that posts as Anonymous is not necessarily a troll. On the
contrary, the troll is often soembody with a regular sounding name like
Paul Ranton and people might think that is his name.

You are being very very silly, you know that, don't you?

 
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Daniel Dyer
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      12-12-2005
On Mon, 12 Dec 2005 09:11:48 -0000, Alex Molochnikov <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:

> a. lots of 'real' aplications are written in Java (Oracle Management
> Tools, for a quick reference)


The Oracle Management Tools are far from being a good example of desktop
Java applications. They really are unpleasant.

Dan.

--
Daniel Dyer
http://www.dandyer.co.uk
 
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Daniel Dyer
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      12-12-2005
On Mon, 12 Dec 2005 05:19:28 -0000, Alex Molochnikov <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:

> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:(E-Mail Removed) oups.com...
>> Many used Eclipse as their favourite free one, and then later buy
>> IntelliJ IDEA for its refactoring abilities like changing variable
>> names.

>
> Eclipse has these features. IDEA may have other advantages (just a
> supposition on my part, since I never used it), but refactoring ain't it.
>
>> I don't really use java...

>
> ...yet feel qualified to judge its merits/failings.



NetBeans also has refactoring tools, but IDEA's refactoring support is
more comprehensive. If you don't use IDEA how do you know that Eclipse
matches it in this regard? I'm not saying that it doesn't (I am similarly
unqualified to make the call because I don't like to use Eclipse).

Dan.

--
Daniel Dyer
http://www.dandyer.co.uk
 
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