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Can Java do fancy GUIs?

 
 
John McGrath
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      04-17-2005
On 4/15/2005 at 11:07:28 PM, Ramon F Herrera wrote:

> It's quite simple, really.
> My standards are higher than yours.


That is certainly one possibility. The other possibility is that he knows
how to create the GUI's he wants with Swing and you are not able to do so.

It seems pretty silly to be arguing about this without talking about what
you are actually trying to accomplish. You have mentioned Adobe Acrobat's
"Zoom Toolbar". I do not have Acrobat, but I do have Adobe Reader. It
also has a "Zoom Toolbar", and there is certainly nothing there that could
not be done with Swing. There are quite a few components in that toolbar,
so it is unclear what you think cannot be done in Swing.

So if you really have an interest in doing this in Swing, why not tell us
specifically what it is that you are having problems with? I am sure that
someone here would be glad to help you do what you want.

--
Regards,

John McGrath
 
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Alex Buell
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      04-17-2005
On Sun, 17 Apr 2005 16:44:37 GMT, David Segall <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:

>To be truthful, I am impressed with the Acrobat Reader splash screen.
>How do they do those swirly bits in Java or any other language?


http://www.jroller.com/page/gfx/20050315


Cheers,
Alex.
--
http://www.munted.org.uk
 
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David Alex Lamb
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      04-17-2005
In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
Tor Iver Wilhelmsen <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>"Ramon F Herrera" <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:
>
>> I aspire to have the same quality as the very best graphical designers
>> on the planet (Adobe, the creators of the electronic font, press,
>> logos, etc.) while you are satisfied with whatever Swing provides.

>
>In other words you intend to go through life dissatisfied.
>
>You give the impression of having the same disease as many in the
>games industry, where the looks are more important than the function.
>You will find that users prefer simple software that WORKS instead of
>over-designed bells and whistles GUIs which confuse.


Good grief. Yes, he was a bit bombastic in how he said things, but at the
core he was asking for a simple piece of common GUI functionality: multiple
docking toolbars. I know how to have a single docking toolbar but have never
had to learn how to get multiples. Anybody able to answer this fairly narrow
technical question?
--
"Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd" - Ian Lamb, age 3.5
http://www.cs.queensu.ca/~dalamb/ qucis->cs to reply (it's a long story...)
 
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David Alex Lamb
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      04-17-2005
In article <Q7a8e.8341$Fm5.2889@trndny09>,
Thomas G. Marshall <(E-Mail Removed). com> wrote:
> 3. And even if you are not after the high-end glitz I
> am referring to, swing (even with the windows
> LaF) somehow just never looks /quite/ like the
> other windows applications running. I personally
> find that irritating.


Do you mean the Metal L&F versus the "native" ones? I thought it was easy to
change that -- though I've not looked at Swing details for several years,
relying on a fairly simple set of facilities for most of what I do.
--
"Yo' ideas need to be thinked befo' they are say'd" - Ian Lamb, age 3.5
http://www.cs.queensu.ca/~dalamb/ qucis->cs to reply (it's a long story...)
 
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Thomas G. Marshall
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      04-17-2005
David Alex Lamb coughed up:
> In article <Q7a8e.8341$Fm5.2889@trndny09>,
> Thomas G. Marshall
> <(E-Mail Removed). com> wrote:
>> 3. And even if you are not after the high-end glitz I
>> am referring to, swing (even with the windows
>> LaF) somehow just never looks /quite/ like the
>> other windows applications running. I personally
>> find that irritating.

>
> Do you mean the Metal L&F versus the "native" ones?


The "native" one that is pertinent here is the windows one, which is for
microsoft windows.

So I mean precisely what I said. The windows LaF, as established by this
code, should you wish to hardwire it:

try
{
UIManager.setLookAndFeel(
"com.sun.java.swing.plaf.windows.WindowsLookAndFee l");
}
catch (Exception ignore) { }

Just does not /quite/ look like the rest of the windows apps running. On
/any/ version of windows. Even the latest xp laf's just don't look /right/
..


> I thought it was
> easy to change that -- though I've not looked at Swing details for
> several years, relying on a fairly simple set of facilities for most
> of what I do.




--
Whyowhydidn'tsunmakejavarequireanuppercaseletterto startclassnames....


 
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Abrasive Sponge
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      04-17-2005
Ramon F Herrera wrote:
> So far, I have been programming my interfaces by picking the available
> Swing components in my IDE. Sometimes, however, a programmer needs a
> richer visual interface. I have always noticed that the standard
> (compiled, non-Java) Windows programs tend to have a more professional
> look than their Java counterparts.


That's odd because Swing has multiple look and feels including XP and
there are also other beautiful ones like JGoodies.

>
> Let me give an example: I have a program that displays and manipulates
> images and I am really jalous of the way the "Zoom Toolbar" looks in
> Adobe Acrobat. That's the kind of visual quality that I am trying to
> achieve. Is it possible to write an exact (or close) replica of that
> zoom toolbar in Java?


Yep

With the "floating" toolbars that somehow deck
> next to each other?


Yep, it's all part of the API
>
> I have read a little about JavaBeans. Is this what JavaBeans is for?
> To achieve very nice and professional looking widgets? How hard (and
> expensive) is it to have a high quality JavaBean custom written for
> you?


Widgets are more than just java beans. Look into it.



>
> TIA,
>
> -Ramon F Herrera
>

 
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Thomas G. Marshall
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      04-18-2005
David Alex Lamb coughed up:
> In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
> Tor Iver Wilhelmsen <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>> "Ramon F Herrera" <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:
>>
>>> I aspire to have the same quality as the very best graphical
>>> designers on the planet (Adobe, the creators of the electronic
>>> font, press, logos, etc.) while you are satisfied with whatever
>>> Swing provides.

>>
>> In other words you intend to go through life dissatisfied.
>>
>> You give the impression of having the same disease as many in the
>> games industry, where the looks are more important than the function.
>> You will find that users prefer simple software that WORKS instead of
>> over-designed bells and whistles GUIs which confuse.

>
> Good grief. Yes, he was a bit bombastic in how he said things, but
> at the core he was asking for a simple piece of common GUI
> functionality: multiple docking toolbars. I know how to have a
> single docking toolbar but have never had to learn how to get
> multiples. Anybody able to answer this fairly narrow technical
> question?


Repost with that specific question as the subject. I would be interested in
the replies.

--
"Well, ain't this place a geographical oddity!
Two weeks from everywhere!"


 
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Thomas G. Marshall
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      04-18-2005
Dag Sunde coughed up:
> <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:(E-Mail Removed) ups.com...
>> Ramon,
>>
>> Take a look at Photomesa, a 100% pure java, swing-based desktop
>> application that will simply blow you away.
>>
>> http://www.windsorinterfaces.com/photomesa.shtml
>>
>> While it's currently a shareware application, at some point it was a
>> work-in-progress, with source code avaialble...
>>
>> http://www.cs.umd.edu/hcil/photomesa...gorithms.shtml
>> http://www.cs.umd.edu/hcil/jazz/
>>
>> I don't know if this helps, hope so...

>
> While that is probably a very powerful application that fullfill
> your needs, it was a very bad argument in a discussion concerning
> swing vs. elegant and "sexy" GUI...
>
> That is propably the most horrible UI I've seen in a long time.
> It breaks almost every rule from the "divine proportion" and
> balance, to simple common sense...
>
> just my 2 cents worth...



1. That's excessively rude.

2. I don't see your conclusion, and I've been in GUI design for a very long
time. I've spent a lifetime tearing apart UI's from beginners to supposed
experts, and cannot state with certainty whether this is good or bad from
screenshots. It would be impossible to entirely rank on a GUI's design
without actually /using/ the gui for a while. Did you actually run this
thing? I myself did not, and without doing so I would be unable to say
"That is propably [sic] the most horrible UI I've seen in a long time."


3. Divine proportion? Phi is /way/ over hyped. It is an interesting
mathematical notion, but it is not as strong a driving force in visual
esthetics as is often told. Take an honest look at all the parts of your
currently running applications, and tell me all the places where 1hi
(1:1.618...) is used, and where it would help if it isn't.


--
"Well, ain't this place a geographical oddity!
Two weeks from everywhere!"


 
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Remi Bastide
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      04-18-2005
http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed) (David Alex Lamb) wrote:

>In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
>Tor Iver Wilhelmsen <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>"Ramon F Herrera" <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:
>>
>>> I aspire to have the same quality as the very best graphical designers
>>> on the planet (Adobe, the creators of the electronic font, press,
>>> logos, etc.) while you are satisfied with whatever Swing provides.

>>
>>In other words you intend to go through life dissatisfied.
>>
>>You give the impression of having the same disease as many in the
>>games industry, where the looks are more important than the function.
>>You will find that users prefer simple software that WORKS instead of
>>over-designed bells and whistles GUIs which confuse.

>
>Good grief. Yes, he was a bit bombastic in how he said things, but at the
>core he was asking for a simple piece of common GUI functionality: multiple
>docking toolbars. I know how to have a single docking toolbar but have never
>had to learn how to get multiples. Anybody able to answer this fairly narrow
>technical question?


http://www.infonode.net/index.html?idwfeatures
 
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Chris Uppal
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      04-18-2005
Thomas G. Marshall wrote:

> [...] They make the hideous
> mistake, which is a very common one, of providing an interface that looks
> fully raytraced without thought as to which button gives me options,
> which part can I drag the GUI with, etc., etc.


Or even which parts /are/ buttons, or otherwise active parts of the GUI, and
which are mere decoration. Those designs, IMO, range from poorly thought out
and implemented (at the best) right the way down to insanely incompetent.

There's no obvious theoretical reason why roll-your-own GUIs should be so bad,
but somehow they always[*] are...

([*] "always" is a strong word, perhaps too strong, but I can't think of a
counter-example right now.)

Maybe its a selection effect -- the designers who know how to create GUIs that
work will naturally understand the value of meeting user-expectations, and
hence of adhering tightly to standards. So, when they do decide to create
their own bit of UI widgetry I don't notice that it's non-standard since it's
been crafted to fit seemlessly with the widgets that I am used to. (one
example being the "splittable" scrollbars that a few Windows applications use)

-- chris


 
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