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emacs Vs Eclipse?

 
 
blmblm@myrealbox.com
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      10-08-2004
In article <(E-Mail Removed) >,
slowCoder <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>Hello everyone,
>Is there a discussion on emacs vs eclipse? Are there any advantages of
>emacs over eclipse?
>
>I'm a grad student and I've been using emacs for over 6 years ( it was
>the first thing I ever tried and it worked for me). Recently, I had to
>"take over" a project and improve it. I didn't have the
>design/documentation. The only thing I had was the code ( about 500
>java files, 55 packages and 112kloc) developed over 5 years (yes, it
>is a research project).
>
>Using eclipse helped me quickly understand the code. Eclipse helped me
>efficiently search/navigate between files and methods. I found the
>eclipse ide to be more powerful than the emacs-ide
>(http://jdee.sunsite.dk/).
>
>Given that eclipse has plugins for C/Java/Latex and runs on Linux/Win,
>I don't see a reason why I should stick with emacs.
>
>I would like to know why emacs-users (who have also tried eclipse) are
>still sticking with emacs ?
>
>An Eclipse Convert.


Well, I'm a vi/vim user rather than an emacs user, but for the present
purposes that may be close enough.

I don't have a lot of experience with IDEs in general or Eclipse in
particular, so probably I don't fully appreciate their good points,
but for me the biggest stumbling block has always been the need to
master, or at least use, a text-editing interface different from
the one I've spent so many hours with. All those hours have made me
pretty good at using vim's interface without having to consciously
think about what keys to press to achieve the result I want, which
I like. Like hardcore emacs users, my strong preference is to use
vim for all text-editing jobs (code, LaTeX source, e-mail, newsgroup
postings, etc.). I have been told that with enough practice it's
possible to master more than one text-editing interface and use them
both well, but I'm skeptical, at least in my own case: I once spent
about a year trying to use both MS Word and vi, and all I can say is
that it was not a good experience -- my Word documents were full of
"jjjjkkkk" sequences, and vi beeped at me a lot.

You really found it easy to walk away from six years of emacs? Hm.
Had you invested some time in mastering it, or are we talking
"learned the basics and didn't try to go further"? NTTAWTT, as
they say, just curious.

--
| B. L. Massingill
| ObDisclaimer: I don't speak for my employers; they return the favor.
--
-- blm
 
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Jim Cochrane
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      10-09-2004
In article <(E-Mail Removed)>, http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed) wrote:
> In article <(E-Mail Removed) >,
> slowCoder <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>Hello everyone,
>>Is there a discussion on emacs vs eclipse? Are there any advantages of
>>emacs over eclipse?
>>
>>I'm a grad student and I've been using emacs for over 6 years ( it was
>>the first thing I ever tried and it worked for me). Recently, I had to
>>"take over" a project and improve it. I didn't have the
>>design/documentation. The only thing I had was the code ( about 500
>>java files, 55 packages and 112kloc) developed over 5 years (yes, it
>>is a research project).
>>
>>Using eclipse helped me quickly understand the code. Eclipse helped me
>>efficiently search/navigate between files and methods. I found the
>>eclipse ide to be more powerful than the emacs-ide
>>(http://jdee.sunsite.dk/).
>>
>>Given that eclipse has plugins for C/Java/Latex and runs on Linux/Win,
>>I don't see a reason why I should stick with emacs.
>>
>>I would like to know why emacs-users (who have also tried eclipse) are
>>still sticking with emacs ?
>>
>>An Eclipse Convert.

>
> Well, I'm a vi/vim user rather than an emacs user, but for the present
> purposes that may be close enough.


I have had very few problems using vim as my editor along with an IDE
(using the IDE for browsing, analyzing class relationships, compiling,
.... - everything but editing). One of the IDEs I use is eclipse
(although I admit that I have not used it extensively, but long enough,
I think to find that this process works for me).

Assuming, entering the discussion late, I'm understanding your topic
correctly - being used to vim, wouldn't it be most efficient for you to
do the same?

> I don't have a lot of experience with IDEs in general or Eclipse in
> particular, so probably I don't fully appreciate their good points,
> but for me the biggest stumbling block has always been the need to
> master, or at least use, a text-editing interface different from
> the one I've spent so many hours with. All those hours have made me
> pretty good at using vim's interface without having to consciously
> think about what keys to press to achieve the result I want, which
> I like. Like hardcore emacs users, my strong preference is to use
> vim for all text-editing jobs (code, LaTeX source, e-mail, newsgroup
> postings, etc.). I have been told that with enough practice it's
> possible to master more than one text-editing interface and use them
> both well, but I'm skeptical, at least in my own case: I once spent
> about a year trying to use both MS Word and vi, and all I can say is
> that it was not a good experience -- my Word documents were full of
> "jjjjkkkk" sequences, and vi beeped at me a lot.
>
> You really found it easy to walk away from six years of emacs? Hm.
> Had you invested some time in mastering it, or are we talking
> "learned the basics and didn't try to go further"? NTTAWTT, as
> they say, just curious.
>
> --
>| B. L. Massingill
>| ObDisclaimer: I don't speak for my employers; they return the favor.



--
Jim Cochrane; (E-Mail Removed)
[When responding by email, include the term non-spam in the subject line to
get through my spam filter.]
 
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Sudsy
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      10-09-2004
Jim Cochrane wrote:
> In article <(E-Mail Removed)>, (E-Mail Removed) wrote:

<snip>
>>Well, I'm a vi/vim user rather than an emacs user, but for the present
>>purposes that may be close enough.

>
>
> I have had very few problems using vim as my editor along with an IDE
> (using the IDE for browsing, analyzing class relationships, compiling,
> ... - everything but editing). One of the IDEs I use is eclipse
> (although I admit that I have not used it extensively, but long enough,
> I think to find that this process works for me).
>
> Assuming, entering the discussion late, I'm understanding your topic
> correctly - being used to vim, wouldn't it be most efficient for you to
> do the same?


I see no problem with creating Java source in vi (I even have some
custom code-generation tools) and then just importing to an Eclipse
project.
Okay, so you lose auto-completion and syntax highlighting, but if
you can code like a banshee in another environment then why not use
what works best for you?

--
Java/J2EE/UNIX consulting and remote development.

 
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Miles Bader
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      10-09-2004
"Darryl L. Pierce" <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:
>> You are aware that there exist text formats other than C, Java and
>> LaTeX, and platforms other than Linux and MS-Windows?

>
> Perhaps there are, but if the person to which you're replying doesn't use
> them then their existence is meaningless to him.


Someone who _never_ uses another file format, and _never_ wants to?
If there are really such people, perhaps they're better off sticking
with windows & hard-wired editors...

One rather huge advantage of Emacs is that as your interests (or job, or
OS, or ...) changes, Emacs can change with you, and adapt or be adapted.

This is one reason why there are so many very long-term emacs users
(I've used Emacs for over 20 years, and I'm not unusual on this list I
think).

-Miles
--
`...the Soviet Union was sliding in to an economic collapse so comprehensive
that in the end its factories produced not goods but bads: finished products
less valuable than the raw materials they were made from.' [The Economist]
 
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blmblm@myrealbox.com
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Posts: n/a
 
      10-09-2004
In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
Jim Cochrane <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>In article <(E-Mail Removed)>, (E-Mail Removed) wrote:
>> In article <(E-Mail Removed) >,
>> slowCoder <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>>>Hello everyone,
>>>Is there a discussion on emacs vs eclipse? Are there any advantages of
>>>emacs over eclipse?
>>>
>>>I'm a grad student and I've been using emacs for over 6 years ( it was
>>>the first thing I ever tried and it worked for me). Recently, I had to
>>>"take over" a project and improve it. I didn't have the
>>>design/documentation. The only thing I had was the code ( about 500
>>>java files, 55 packages and 112kloc) developed over 5 years (yes, it
>>>is a research project).
>>>
>>>Using eclipse helped me quickly understand the code. Eclipse helped me
>>>efficiently search/navigate between files and methods. I found the
>>>eclipse ide to be more powerful than the emacs-ide
>>>(http://jdee.sunsite.dk/).
>>>
>>>Given that eclipse has plugins for C/Java/Latex and runs on Linux/Win,
>>>I don't see a reason why I should stick with emacs.
>>>
>>>I would like to know why emacs-users (who have also tried eclipse) are
>>>still sticking with emacs ?
>>>
>>>An Eclipse Convert.

>>
>> Well, I'm a vi/vim user rather than an emacs user, but for the present
>> purposes that may be close enough.

>
>I have had very few problems using vim as my editor along with an IDE
>(using the IDE for browsing, analyzing class relationships, compiling,
>... - everything but editing). One of the IDEs I use is eclipse
>(although I admit that I have not used it extensively, but long enough,
>I think to find that this process works for me).
>
>Assuming, entering the discussion late, I'm understanding your topic
>correctly - being used to vim, wouldn't it be most efficient for you to
>do the same?


Well, I was trying to address the OP's question, which I interpreted as
"why would anyone stick with emacs when there's Eclipse?" The point
I was trying to make below (and I'm mildly curious about the placement
of your reply with respect to the other text, but -- no matter) was
that this didn't seem so crazy to me, since once one has invested the
time in really mastering a text editor along the lines of emacs or vim,
putting that aside in favor of a different text-editing environment
isn't such an appealing option.

I personally am not currently doing enough coding to really care,
but I'm mentally filing the tip about vim with Eclipse for possible
future reference. (I had heard a rumor that this was possible
but had not investigated.) I'm skeptical, though -- in my limited
experience with IDEs, it seems like a lot of the usefulness comes in
the editing phase, and if you replace the built-in editor with vim,
you lose that. It sounds like you find the other features useful,
but -- I'm skeptical. Maybe they only really prove their value when
you're working on big projects, which is something I don't do a lot of.
(I teach undergrad CS, in case anyone is curious.) Or maybe I'm just
too attached to the command line to appreciate GUIs. <shrug>

[ leaving the following in for reference ]

>> I don't have a lot of experience with IDEs in general or Eclipse in
>> particular, so probably I don't fully appreciate their good points,
>> but for me the biggest stumbling block has always been the need to
>> master, or at least use, a text-editing interface different from
>> the one I've spent so many hours with. All those hours have made me
>> pretty good at using vim's interface without having to consciously
>> think about what keys to press to achieve the result I want, which
>> I like. Like hardcore emacs users, my strong preference is to use
>> vim for all text-editing jobs (code, LaTeX source, e-mail, newsgroup
>> postings, etc.). I have been told that with enough practice it's
>> possible to master more than one text-editing interface and use them
>> both well, but I'm skeptical, at least in my own case: I once spent
>> about a year trying to use both MS Word and vi, and all I can say is
>> that it was not a good experience -- my Word documents were full of
>> "jjjjkkkk" sequences, and vi beeped at me a lot.
>>
>> You really found it easy to walk away from six years of emacs? Hm.
>> Had you invested some time in mastering it, or are we talking
>> "learned the basics and didn't try to go further"? NTTAWTT, as
>> they say, just curious.


--
| B. L. Massingill
| ObDisclaimer: I don't speak for my employers; they return the favor.
 
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blmblm@myrealbox.com
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Posts: n/a
 
      10-09-2004
In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
Sudsy <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
>Jim Cochrane wrote:
>> In article <(E-Mail Removed)>, (E-Mail Removed) wrote:

><snip>
>>>Well, I'm a vi/vim user rather than an emacs user, but for the present
>>>purposes that may be close enough.

>>
>>
>> I have had very few problems using vim as my editor along with an IDE
>> (using the IDE for browsing, analyzing class relationships, compiling,
>> ... - everything but editing). One of the IDEs I use is eclipse
>> (although I admit that I have not used it extensively, but long enough,
>> I think to find that this process works for me).
>>
>> Assuming, entering the discussion late, I'm understanding your topic
>> correctly - being used to vim, wouldn't it be most efficient for you to
>> do the same?

>
>I see no problem with creating Java source in vi (I even have some
>custom code-generation tools) and then just importing to an Eclipse
>project.
>Okay, so you lose auto-completion and syntax highlighting, but if
>you can code like a banshee in another environment then why not use
>what works best for you?


But why bother with importing into Eclipse? Why not just use
command-line tools to compile and execute? I'm sure there's
something about Eclipse that I just don't appreciate -- as I said in
my reply to Mr. Cochrane, I don't do a lot of work with big projects,
and I do like CLIs, so maybe that's it. Those of you who think this
"vi(m) plus Eclipse" approach makes sense -- what is about Eclipse
that makes it worth the resources? in terms of memory/CPU use,
screen real estate, etc.

--
| B. L. Massingill
| ObDisclaimer: I don't speak for my employers; they return the favor.
 
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Sudsy
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      10-09-2004
(E-Mail Removed) wrote:
> In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
> Sudsy <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

<snip>
> But why bother with importing into Eclipse? Why not just use
> command-line tools to compile and execute? I'm sure there's
> something about Eclipse that I just don't appreciate -- as I said in
> my reply to Mr. Cochrane, I don't do a lot of work with big projects,
> and I do like CLIs, so maybe that's it. Those of you who think this
> "vi(m) plus Eclipse" approach makes sense -- what is about Eclipse
> that makes it worth the resources? in terms of memory/CPU use,
> screen real estate, etc.


Where Eclipse really pays off for me is in large project building and
deployment. Now, I could just use ant, XDoclet, etc. from the command-
line but Eclipse supports all it so well.
I've even generated boiler-plate XML files for my typical projects
which incorporate servlets, JSPs, custom tag libraries, etc. I just
create a new project, import the initial source and build XML files,
perform any required customization, then proceed to testing and
deployment.
For deployment I use JBoss and JBoss-IDE, a particularly powerful
combination. Speeds deployment/testing considerably. I make a simple
configuration change and then build for the production server, i.e.
WebSphere. But now IBM's come out with a combination which includes
a bare-bones J2EE so I can even skip the JBoss step. Of course it
also costs $$...
For simple apps, or if you've already got a lot of Java experience,
an IDE probably doesn't get you much. I know that they tend to slow
me down when I'm cranking out code, heads-down. But I've come to
appreciate that they can help considerably in later development and
deployment phases.
YMMV

--
Java/J2EE/UNIX consulting and remote development.

 
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Sudsy
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      10-10-2004
Sudsy wrote:
> (E-Mail Removed) wrote:
>
>> In article <(E-Mail Removed)>,
>> Sudsy <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>
> <snip>
>
>> But why bother with importing into Eclipse? Why not just use
>> command-line tools to compile and execute? I'm sure there's
>> something about Eclipse that I just don't appreciate -- as I said in
>> my reply to Mr. Cochrane, I don't do a lot of work with big projects,
>> and I do like CLIs, so maybe that's it. Those of you who think this
>> "vi(m) plus Eclipse" approach makes sense -- what is about Eclipse
>> that makes it worth the resources? in terms of memory/CPU use,
>> screen real estate, etc.

>
>
> Where Eclipse really pays off for me is in large project building and
> deployment. Now, I could just use ant, XDoclet, etc. from the command-
> line but Eclipse supports all it so well.

<snip>

After additional contemplation I'd like add to my previous post. When
I was first creating J2EE applications I was developing/testing on IBM's
WebSphere but the production system was running BEA's WebLogic. In
addition to the generic ejb-jar.xml deployment descriptor, each vendor
had additional configuration files generated by their assembly tools.
In order to shorten the debug/test cycle, I sussed-out the file formats
and generated them myself as part of the project build; it made deploy-
ment easier and much faster.
With Eclipse and XDoclet you can create the necessary configuration
files WITHOUT having to dig around "under the covers", so I guess that's
where I see the biggest gains. I don't really need code completion or
class browsers (I've been writing Java since version 1.0.4 and have all
necessary documentation available in my web browser windows), but I can
imagine that those features might be helpful to someone with less
experience or who doesn't have the javadocs for certain classes...
I find myself to be more productive just using vi. I'm certain that
long-term emacs coders feel the same way.

--
Java/J2EE/UNIX consulting and remote development.

 
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Andrew Thompson
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      10-10-2004
On Sat, 09 Oct 2004 20:28:40 -0400, Sudsy wrote:

> (I've been writing Java since version 1.0.4 and have all
> necessary documentation available in my web browser windows)


Do I understand correctly that you have both an rt.jar and
documentation for a '1.0' Java?

--
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Kai Grossjohann
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      10-10-2004
(E-Mail Removed) (slowCoder) writes:

> Using eclipse helped me quickly understand the code. Eclipse helped me
> efficiently search/navigate between files and methods. I found the
> eclipse ide to be more powerful than the emacs-ide
> (http://jdee.sunsite.dk/).


I agree with Klaus, try ECB. Perhaps it is the missing link that you
were looking for. It allows all the visual navigation things that
Eclipse has, with Class browser and directory browser and so on.

Also note that there are quite a number of ways to navigate the code
even in pure JDEE. For example, there is C-c C-v C-y (I think) which
opens the source code of the class mentioned at point.

> I would like to know why emacs-users (who have also tried eclipse) are
> still sticking with emacs ?


Well, I've had to do some Perl development for a while, and some C
development. For pure-Java stuff, Eclipse is surely nice.

Kai
 
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