Velocity Reviews - Computer Hardware Reviews

Velocity Reviews > Newsgroups > Programming > Java > emacs Vs Eclipse?

Reply
Thread Tools

emacs Vs Eclipse?

 
 
Ville Vainio
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-06-2004
>>>>> "Michael" == Michael Borgwardt <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:

Michael> Ville Vainio wrote:

>> Eclipse CDT editor doesn't support the Whitesmith indentation
>> style (which is practically mandatory for Symbian C++
>> development) yet. I


Michael> Of course it does.

Great. How can I enable it? Note that I'm talking about CDT, not JDT.


Michael> Then you haven't bothered to try and find out because
Michael> that's a matter of opening the help window and typing in
Michael> "indentation".

Tried that, didn't help. I'm running the most recent eclipse. Java
plugin has some "Code formatter" options, CDT plugin doesn't.

Michael> of time to learn... Apparently that investment is so big
Michael> and difficult to acquire that its users become scared of
Michael> even the tiniest little effort that might lead them away
Michael> from it

Any pointers where that "tiny" effort should be directed is
appreciated.

--
Ville Vainio http://tinyurl.com/2prnb
 
Reply With Quote
 
 
 
 
Michael Borgwardt
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-06-2004
Ville Vainio wrote:
> >> Eclipse CDT editor doesn't support the Whitesmith indentation
> >> style (which is practically mandatory for Symbian C++
> >> development) yet. I

>
> Michael> Of course it does.
>
> Great. How can I enable it? Note that I'm talking about CDT, not JDT.


*groan*

Forget what I said. I read this in a Java newsgroup and wasn't aware what
CDT is...
 
Reply With Quote
 
 
 
 
Sudsy
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-06-2004
Michael Borgwardt wrote:
<snip>
> And to think that it's usually emacs that's being touted as the ultimate
> tool which you just have to invest a bit of time to learn... Apparently
> that investment is so big and difficult to acquire that its users become
> scared of even the tiniest little effort that might lead them away from
> it


Some very interesting opinions expressed on this thread. While I've
never embraced emacs, the most productive developer I've ever met
was a genius and had an emacs development environment second-to-none.
Nobody else could use his system, what with the custom key bindings
and all, but you couldn't fault his approach.
Eclipse isn't perfect (yet!) but XDoclet inclusion makes it a very
attractive alternative to vi (my stalwart ally).
Firing up the IDE is overkill in those situations where you just want
to make minor changes but the build tools make it worthwhile (IMHO)
when you need to create ears or wars for deployment.
As always, YMMV.

--
Java/J2EE/UNIX consulting and remote development.

 
Reply With Quote
 
Galen Boyer
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-06-2004
On Wed, 06 Oct 2004, http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed) wrote:

> Firing up the IDE is overkill in those situations where you
> just want to make minor changes


As a fairly long time Emacs user, I don't "fire it up" to do
anything. I just always have it open and do everything in it,
and I mean everything. Thats the appeal but probably why its
also hated by those that don't like it. I guess, everytime
someone asks a "which editor/environment" question Emacs users
always chime in and answer, Emacs. Almost everything can be done
in Emacs, and this can probably get annoying to the guy that
already loves his editor, especially when the convo degrades into
tit-for-tat editor capabilities.

I do know this, I have eclipse available as well and I "fire it
up" when I need to debug the j2ee app I'm involved in building,
cause Emac's GUI debugger for java is flaky. When I use it, it's
certainly easy for this eclipse newbie to find one's way around
eclipse, which isn't something that Emacs can claim, for newbies
anyways.

But, as Paul Kunnican, the author of the JDE has stated, if you
are already "in the church", the JDE gives the Emacs user another
reason not to leave Emacs. So, if you like Emacs and you are
coding java, make sure you check out,

http://jdee.sunsite.dk/

--
Galen Boyer
 
Reply With Quote
 
Oliver Scholz
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-06-2004
Ville Vainio <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:

[...]
> I'm a long time emacs user. The following article was an eye-opener,
> of a sort, for me:
>
> http://pinard.progiciels-bpi.ca/opinions/editors.html

[...]

Could you expand on why you found that article convincing? To be
honest, it seems a bit schizophrenic to me. I can make sense of it, if
I read it as a statement of personal, idiosyncratic preferences.
That's o.k., I have my own, different idiosyncracies. But I don't
understand how that could convince anybody else.

I mean: o.k. there is that part about the author's quirks with RMS and
the FSF. Fine for him. Others might agree. I don't care. I am happy
with both RMS and the FSF. At any rate I fail to see the technical
point here.

O.k. there is that part about Python being nicer than Lisp. This comes
a bit as a surprise to me, since the author first states: "In fact,
this Lisp was more than once the language in which I chose to express,
extensively, the algorithmic solution of some problems which were
somehow related to editing tasks." Then he goes on to complain about
the fact that Emacs Lisp does not lend itself very well for tasks not
immediately related to Emacs-the-editor. I can agree with that so
far. Later on he ditches Lisp in favour of Python and complains about
how bad Emacs supports Python. Again, fine for him if he prefers
Python. I don't. IMO, this boils down to the ancient
what-is-the-best-language-of-the-world issue. Surely interesting, but
IMO hardly a very convincing argument against Emacs.

Except, one would reason from this that Emacs should support multiple
extension languages like Vim supposedly does. The author himself can
hardly argue for this, because he complains about the already existing
complexity of Emacs. Now Emacs Lisp is not just an extension language,
it is a language in which the program itself is implemented[1].
Supporting multiple extension languages equally in this way would
*boost* Emacs' complexity, assuming that it is feasible at all.

Maybe I can make sense of the argument, if it is meant to convince that
Vim's design is better: being restrictive in the jobs it attempts to
do and leave everything else to other programs. Maybe I can force
myself to gain some understanding how that could convince somebody to
switch to Vim. But to Eclipse? Honestly!

Speaking of it, there is his introductory point about Emacs'
complexity which has become too much for him, as he states. (The text
is btw. quite of date in a few points, but anyways ...) He does not provide
many technically relevant examples. I agree that the display engine is
arcane stuff. Personally, I have completely failed to understand it.
Maybe Mule is also difficult, I don't know. However, for both there
does not seem to be a lack of people who are able to deal with it. (I
was not there, but I could imagine that implementing UTF-8 as new
internal format has been the source for a lot of headaches. But hey!
we are talking about reaping out the internal representation of text
in a large program that is focused on text and replacing it with
something entirely different. Name one similar programming project
where something like that has been easy!)

Well, of course, if you want to grok *all of Emacs*, then you are in
serious trouble. I just don't see why anybody would want that. I
dare to say that there is not a single person in the world which
understands and has an overview over *all* of Emacs. The charm is
that this is not necessary. It is one of the strength of its design,
that Emacs may grow rather organically.


Oliver

Footnotes:
[1] That Elisp is both, is a critical part of Emacs' design.
This---together with the interactive nature of the language---is what
makes the difference between an Emacs in the generic sense and an
Emacs-like editor.


--
15 Vendémiaire an 213 de la Révolution
Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité!
 
Reply With Quote
 
Will Hartung
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-06-2004

"Oliver Scholz" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)-berlin.de...
> Ville Vainio <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:
>
> [...]
> > I'm a long time emacs user. The following article was an eye-opener,
> > of a sort, for me:
> >
> > http://pinard.progiciels-bpi.ca/opinions/editors.html

> [...]
>
> Could you expand on why you found that article convincing? To be
> honest, it seems a bit schizophrenic to me. I can make sense of it, if
> I read it as a statement of personal, idiosyncratic preferences.
> That's o.k., I have my own, different idiosyncracies. But I don't
> understand how that could convince anybody else.


It didn't make any sense to me, as I don't see why one has to understand the
core deep implementation details of a tool to actually use it.

Take, for example, the Emacs JDE. The author of the JDE may need to
understand the intricacies of Emacs, but I sure don't.

I've been using emacs forever, and I simply don't use a VAST majority of its
capability. I don't use shell buffers, for example. I don't use GNUS, etc.

My .emacs file has TWO LINES that I put there on my own volition (one sets
the tab size to 4, the other disables ^X^C). It has a few more that the JDE
wanted when I installed it (even though I don't use it myself anymore).

I'm sure that the author of this article, as a maintainer of emacs, had a
much different view of the system than I do. He was involved in the politics
of emacs, I'm just an unbiased happy user.

So, as a testament that you can pretty much use emacs out of the box with
little fidgeting about, *wave* that's me.

Oh, and my emacs binary was compiled in 1999...I've never bothered to update
it.

Regards,

Will Hartung
((E-Mail Removed))



 
Reply With Quote
 
Ann
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-06-2004

"slowCoder" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed) om...
> Hello everyone,
> Is there a discussion on emacs vs eclipse? Are there any advantages of
> emacs over eclipse?
>
> I'm a grad student and I've been using emacs for over 6 years ( it was
> the first thing I ever tried and it worked for me). Recently, I had to
> "take over" a project and improve it. I didn't have the
> design/documentation. The only thing I had was the code ( about 500
> java files, 55 packages and 112kloc) developed over 5 years (yes, it
> is a research project).
>
> Using eclipse helped me quickly understand the code. Eclipse helped me
> efficiently search/navigate between files and methods. I found the
> eclipse ide to be more powerful than the emacs-ide
> (http://jdee.sunsite.dk/).
>
> Given that eclipse has plugins for C/Java/Latex and runs on Linux/Win,
> I don't see a reason why I should stick with emacs.
>
> I would like to know why emacs-users (who have also tried eclipse) are
> still sticking with emacs ?
>
> An Eclipse Convert.


I used emacs in the early 1980's for a couple of years
untill my left pinky fell off from having to press the <ctrl>
key all the time.


 
Reply With Quote
 
Per Abrahamsen
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-07-2004
(E-Mail Removed) (slowCoder) writes:

> Given that eclipse has plugins for C/Java/Latex and runs on Linux/Win,
> I don't see a reason why I should stick with emacs.


You are aware that there exist text formats other than C, Java and
LaTeX, and platforms other than Linux and MS-Windows?

I like to use the same text editor for all kinds of text, including
mail and news messages, and on all platforms. And I want it to have
enough knowledge of all the different text formats to allow me to
concentrate on the content, rather than syntactical or editor specific
issues.
 
Reply With Quote
 
Ville Vainio
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-07-2004
>>>>> "Oliver" == Oliver Scholz <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:

Oliver> Ville Vainio <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:
Oliver> [...]

>> I'm a long time emacs user. The following article was an eye-opener,
>> of a sort, for me:
>>
>> http://pinard.progiciels-bpi.ca/opinions/editors.html

Oliver> [...]

Oliver> Could you expand on why you found that article convincing?

It provided a more "inside" perpective to the emacs development, and
suggests that the development won't be accelerating any time soon. For
me, an important part of the appeal of emacs has been the
"future-proof" quality, but if the development is stagnating, well, it
just doesn't feel that future-proof anymore.

Oliver> That's o.k., I have my own, different idiosyncracies. But
Oliver> I don't understand how that could convince anybody else.

It depends on one's idiosyncracies, I guess. I don't think the article
is aimed at "convincing" anyone - what would be the point, anyway? One
might hope that the critique of emacs (or the state of it) might lead
to some discussions in the emacs developer community, perhaps even a
"renaissance" of some sort, reunification of emacs and xemacs, and
world peace (that'll be the day).

Oliver> far. Later on he ditches Lisp in favour of Python and
Oliver> complains about how bad Emacs supports Python. Again,
Oliver> fine for him if he prefers Python. I don't. IMO, this
Oliver> boils down to the ancient
Oliver> what-is-the-best-language-of-the-world issue. Surely
Oliver> interesting, but IMO hardly a very convincing argument
Oliver> against Emacs.

I also prefer Python, by far. If emacs was in Python, it would have
*much* more contributors and extensions. Lisp is an integral part of
the emacs community, and that's probably not going to change, so I,
like the author of the article, did some soul-searching and wondered
whether emacs is where I want to be in the future. I'm going to keep
on using it until Eclipse matures up a bit more, which might take a
few years, but I'm trying to refrain from getting too involved with
configuration and implementation of extensions.

I don't particularly like Java, or consider it a better editor
extension language than elisp, but with Eclipse I think the *need* to
hack the editor is lower.

--
Ville Vainio http://tinyurl.com/2prnb
 
Reply With Quote
 
Per Abrahamsen
Guest
Posts: n/a
 
      10-07-2004
"Darryl L. Pierce" <(E-Mail Removed)> writes:

> Per Abrahamsen wrote:
>
>>> Given that eclipse has plugins for C/Java/Latex and runs on Linux/Win,
>>> I don't see a reason why I should stick with emacs.

>>
>> You are aware that there exist text formats other than C, Java and
>> LaTeX, and platforms other than Linux and MS-Windows?

>
> Perhaps there are, but if the person to which you're replying doesn't use
> them then their existence is meaningless to him.


Given that he posted a news message, he uses at least one other text
format. But my point wasn't that he should have chosen differently,
my question was mostly meant as an implicit reply to his question:

>>> I would like to know why emacs-users (who have also tried eclipse) are
>>> still sticking with emacs ?


Even if his experience is restricted to three text formats on two
platforms, that is not a universal condition. So a solution that fits
his needs may not fit everybody else.

 
Reply With Quote
 
 
 
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Trouble running Emacs-EPL (to run perl in emacs). Adam Funk Perl Misc 4 01-29-2007 10:42 AM
emacs vhdl-mode Rick Jackson VHDL 10 11-30-2005 12:09 PM
Debugging with emacs? Charles Fox Java 6 05-25-2004 03:00 PM
unix emacs yvind Java 8 01-25-2004 05:03 PM
E language mode for Emacs Arvind Kumar VHDL 2 08-20-2003 12:08 PM



Advertisments