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Netbeans Vs Eclipse platforms

 
 
mia.news.speakeasy.net
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      11-09-2003
Netbeans Vs Eclipse again!

Hi all.
I've been using Netbeans for developing java applications.
I recently realized that the Netbeans can be used as a platform for
developing desktop application, and not just an IDE to help in developement.
I have never used Eclipse, but i suppose it has the same feature, a platform
for desktop applications.

The big question is: if i have to start learning how to use one of these
platforms for developing a desktop application, which one is better? and
which one is likely to outlive the other?

thanks
hilz


 
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John O'Conner
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      11-10-2003
mia.news.speakeasy.net wrote:
> Netbeans Vs Eclipse again!
>
> Hi all.
> I've been using Netbeans for developing java applications.
> I recently realized that the Netbeans can be used as a platform for
> developing desktop application, and not just an IDE to help in developement.
> I have never used Eclipse, but i suppose it has the same feature, a platform
> for desktop applications.
>
> The big question is: if i have to start learning how to use one of these
> platforms for developing a desktop application, which one is better? and
> which one is likely to outlive the other?
>
> thanks
> hilz
>
>



Not to discourage you at all...but my question is why anyone would
*want* to use either as an underlying platform for their application. I
created lots of apps, and yes I reuse code...but I've never considered
using an entire framework underneath like Eclipse or NetBeans...there's
so much there, it seems like a big waste for most apps.

--
John

 
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David Segall
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      11-10-2003
John O'Conner <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>mia.news.speakeasy.net wrote:
>> Netbeans Vs Eclipse again!
>>
>> Hi all.
>> I've been using Netbeans for developing java applications.
>> I recently realized that the Netbeans can be used as a platform for
>> developing desktop application, and not just an IDE to help in developement.
>> I have never used Eclipse, but i suppose it has the same feature, a platform
>> for desktop applications.
>>
>> The big question is: if i have to start learning how to use one of these
>> platforms for developing a desktop application, which one is better? and
>> which one is likely to outlive the other?
>>
>> thanks
>> hilz
>>
>>

>
>
>Not to discourage you at all...but my question is why anyone would
>*want* to use either as an underlying platform for their application. I
>created lots of apps, and yes I reuse code...but I've never considered
>using an entire framework underneath like Eclipse or NetBeans...there's
>so much there, it seems like a big waste for most apps.

That's true of the Java Class Libraries in general and I agree that
locating the part you do want is a challenge. Fortunately, "Netbeans
The Definitive Guide" (http://www.oreilly.com/catalog/netbeans/)
provides an excellent user manual for NetBeans and a thorough
introduction to the beans. There are links to some diverse
applications built on NetBeans here:
http://www.netbeans.org/about/third-party.html.
 
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David Segall
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      11-10-2003
"mia.news.speakeasy.net" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

>Netbeans Vs Eclipse again!
>
>Hi all.
>I've been using Netbeans for developing java applications.
>I recently realized that the Netbeans can be used as a platform for
>developing desktop application, and not just an IDE to help in developement.
>I have never used Eclipse, but i suppose it has the same feature, a platform
>for desktop applications.
>
>The big question is: if i have to start learning how to use one of these
>platforms for developing a desktop application, which one is better?

I think you have to choose between the GUI widgets. Eclipse uses SWT
and NetBeans uses standard Swing. I'm not capable of conducting the
arguments on either side.
>which one is likely to outlive the other?

I suspect that IBM will outlast Sun but I would not choose on that
basis.
>thanks
>hilz
>


 
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hilz
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      11-10-2003
> Not to discourage you at all...but my question is why anyone would
> *want* to use either as an underlying platform for their application. I
> created lots of apps, and yes I reuse code...but I've never considered
> using an entire framework underneath like Eclipse or NetBeans...there's
> so much there, it seems like a big waste for most apps.
>
> --
> John
>


I have not decided to use it yet. i am just planning to learn how it works,
so i might start using it if i find it beneficial.
what i am expecting out of it is to give applications a more professional
look, and to make them more standard, and just to learn something new.



 
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Michael Borgwardt
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      11-10-2003
John O'Conner wrote:
> Not to discourage you at all...but my question is why anyone would
> *want* to use either as an underlying platform for their application. I
> created lots of apps, and yes I reuse code...but I've never considered
> using an entire framework underneath like Eclipse or NetBeans...there's
> so much there, it seems like a big waste for most apps.


Waste of *what*?

When all's said and done, a good framework can save you a *LOT* of coding time
on bigger projects. It may not seem as exciting as designing it all yourself
from scratch, but "exciting" counts little versus getting it done in a third of
the time due to reuse and fewer bugs.

 
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nos
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      11-10-2003
I have heard this kind of claim before (3 times faster
to develop) but there is no credibility. I just use eclipse
as an editor. In really big waterfall type projects coding
is about 10 percent of the total effort. I suppose it is
more for extreme programming where you start
coding on day one and you need a good editor because
you change it every day.

"Michael Borgwardt" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:booa1m$1g2nek$(E-Mail Removed)-berlin.de...
> John O'Conner wrote:
> > Not to discourage you at all...but my question is why anyone would
> > *want* to use either as an underlying platform for their application. I
> > created lots of apps, and yes I reuse code...but I've never considered
> > using an entire framework underneath like Eclipse or NetBeans...there's
> > so much there, it seems like a big waste for most apps.

>
> Waste of *what*?
>
> When all's said and done, a good framework can save you a *LOT* of coding

time
> on bigger projects. It may not seem as exciting as designing it all

yourself
> from scratch, but "exciting" counts little versus getting it done in a

third of
> the time due to reuse and fewer bugs.
>



 
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Michael Borgwardt
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      11-11-2003
nos wrote:
> I have heard this kind of claim before (3 times faster
> to develop) but there is no credibility. I just use eclipse
> as an editor. In really big waterfall type projects coding
> is about 10 percent of the total effort.


As I said: you do not only save time on coding, but also a LOT of testing
and error-fixing due to the framework code already being tried and tested.
Furthermore, there may well be gains in the design or even specification
phase because you don't have to specify and design the framework components.

Besides, using the waterfall process in a really big project is probably
the overall worst mistake you can make (well, apart from using no defined
process at all).

 
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John O'Conner
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      11-11-2003
Michael Borgwardt wrote:
>
> Waste of *what*?



Look, I'm not religious about this. However, it seems that all the great
things that make NetBeans so wonderful are not typically present in a
small application...explorer windows, various types of editors, console
output windows, a plugin architecture, etc.

There's a lot of good code there to learn about and to use, but I
maintain that most applications (which tend to be small) won't benefit
significantly from a framework because the overhead of the framework
(space requirements, startup time, RAM usage, complexity, learning time)
is often orders of magnitude greater than the basic application itself.
That would deter me, but hey, like I said, I don't want to discourage
anyone from learning and using a framework, especially if they can claim
productivity gains.

--
John O'Conner

 
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Michael Borgwardt
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      11-11-2003
John O'Conner wrote:
> Look, I'm not religious about this. However, it seems that all the great
> things that make NetBeans so wonderful are not typically present in a
> small application...explorer windows, various types of editors, console
> output windows, a plugin architecture, etc.


You didn't previously say "small application". Besides, not using
most the features offered (nearly any app will use *some*) is not yet
in itself a waste of anything.


> There's a lot of good code there to learn about and to use, but I
> maintain that most applications (which tend to be small) won't benefit


Maybe most applications *you* have worked on are small, but this is not
necessarily so for others.


> significantly from a framework because the overhead of the framework
> (space requirements, startup time, RAM usage, complexity, learning time)
> is often orders of magnitude greater than the basic application itself.


I'd say that it would have to be a *really* small application and/or a
really badly documented framework for the complexity and learning time to
outweigh the gains. IMO most programmers' preference for doing stuff from
scratch is counterproductive.

However, I'll have to agree concerning the performance overheads: those
are a really good reason not to use the framework - IF size and speed really
are important for the application's intended running environment. This
is becoming rarer all the time, with the cheapest new computer you can buy
having a 1GHz CPU and 256MB RAM...

 
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