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Brandon Blackmoor <> wrote in message news:<bg99ku$m5pud$>...
> username wrote:
> > "asj" <> wrote in message news:...
> >> however, there is some concern that sun has decided not to
> >> move forward with anything for the latest windows ce
> >
> > well thats bad news for java.
>
> WinCE is crap. Why bother supporting it?

Well, the other 2 (Palm and Symbian) are also crap, but WinCE has
the best development tools between these 3.

username wrote:
> sounds like you never tried java apps.... they are very platform specific
> (or better put: JVM specific) and buggy!


sounds like you've never actually used java a lot (other than playing
with applets perhaps).

eBay is building its ENTIRE infrastructure on J2EE (it dumped
microsoft's .NET in favor of a more RPBUST solution):

http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&....java.advocacy

* this infrastructure is allegedly architected to be able to server 1
BILLION page views a day - it now runs 400 MILLION transaction a day or
75% of eBay

Java powers a major proportion of all the high end corporate
infrastruture. for example, just looking at one application server,
IBM's Java app server Websphere:

35,000 global customers use WebSphere:

65% of the Fortune 500 companies
80% of the top US healthcare companies
75% of commercial banks worldwide
90% of the top commercial banks in the US
67% of the world's largest banks use IBM messaging servers
15 of the top Wall Street brokerage firms
7 of the 8 largest US telecommunications companies

mix in all the other commercial java application servers (Oracle's,
SUN's, BEA's), as well as the open source application servers (JBOSS,
tomcat, etc) and you get the picture.

"asj" <> wrote in message news:...
> username wrote:
> > sounds like you never tried java apps.... they are very platform
specific
> > (or better put: JVM specific) and buggy!
>
>
> sounds like you've never actually used java a lot (other than playing
> with applets perhaps).

you are SO wrong about that .....

> eBay is building its ENTIRE infrastructure on J2EE (it dumped
> microsoft's .NET in favor of a more RPBUST solution):

you say that serverside J2EE is why java will win on a handheld?
my handheld doesnot have to do 400 million transactions a day.....
same applies to ordinary PC users: they run windows and not websphere!

asj <> wrote in message news:<>...
> there are actually JVMs for windows handhelds, eg.:
> http://www.blueboard.com/j2me/notes/2002_7_26.htm
>
> however, there is some concern that sun has decided not to move forward
> with anything for the latest windows ce, nor does there seem to be
> anyone taking the ball in their stead.


Sun has wisely (IMO) decided that the Pocket PC market is not worth
the trouble of getting screwed by the owner of the OS. Obviously,
others have decided the same since no one seems to be anxious to jump
in.

The good thing about this is that it looks like Palm is starting to
squeeze Pocket PC out of most of the enterprise market, and this entry
of IBM into the Palm alliance will only accelerate Palm adoption in
corporations. I believe the latest figures show Palm with more than
50% of the enterprise market and Windows at around 30%+, with Palm
gaining more traction faster after it conveniently forgot about this
market in the earlier years, when it concentrated on the consumer
market.

"asj" <> wrote in message news:...
> username wrote:
> > you say that serverside J2EE is why java will win on a handheld?
> > my handheld doesnot have to do 400 million transactions a day.....
> > same applies to ordinary PC users: they run windows and not websphere!
>
> dude, your comment was about Java in general...you obviously have no
> wide experience with java since you're recycling old criticisms that
> were leveled against desktop browser applets in the late 1990s. it's the
> 21st century and java has pertty much become the de facto standard for
> writing applications for many small devices such as smart cards,
> handsets, set tops (although that is still an ongoing battle), and
> others. java is also widely considered to be the best solution for
> server side development, because it is robust, open, scalable, and
> cross-platform.

if that is true, then why are you flooding the groups with your java
advocacy?

> and, no, your handheld does not need to serve 1 billion page views a
> day, but isn't it nice to know that the technology and platform that CAN
> be architected to do 400 million and more transactions a day runs in
> your handheld?

I love java, but no, when considering software for my handheld, I do not
care about mainframe scalability

> new java developers from palm and pocket pc developers who will help
> architect the same robust solutions in handhelds that we have come to
> expect elsewhere are ALWAYS welcome. the job market for java is much
> stronger than most others, and face it, would you rather continue to
> write to a proprietary solution that shackles you to a particular os, or
> develop on an open, standards-based platform that will run on the widest
> number of devices?

I am only interested in delivering functionality to my customers.

"Brandon Blackmoor" <> wrote in message
news:bg99ku$m5pud$...
> username wrote:
> > "asj" <> wrote in message news:...
> >> however, there is some concern that sun has decided not to
> >> move forward with anything for the latest windows ce
> >
> > well thats bad news for java.
>
> WinCE is crap. Why bother supporting it?

because your users are using it???

username wrote:
> if that is true, then why are you flooding the groups with your java
> advocacy?


so you think that people should not advocate solution that they think
are GOOD?
or perhaps you wish that people should advocate BAD solutions?



>
> > and, no, your handheld does not need to serve 1 billion page views a
> > day, but isn't it nice to know that the technology and platform that CAN
> > be architected to do 400 million and more transactions a day runs in
> > your handheld?
>
> I love java, but no, when considering software for my handheld, I do not
> care about mainframe scalability


well, that's surprising...i would love it if my handheld apps were as
robust and scalable as mainframe apps...that way, as the capabilities of
the handheld grew, the apps would in turn be able to meet the increased
demands placed on it.



>
> > new java developers from palm and pocket pc developers who will help
> > architect the same robust solutions in handhelds that we have come to
> > expect elsewhere are ALWAYS welcome. the job market for java is much
> > stronger than most others, and face it, would you rather continue to
> > write to a proprietary solution that shackles you to a particular os, or
> > develop on an open, standards-based platform that will run on the widest
> > number of devices?
>
> I am only interested in delivering functionality to my customers.

ahhhh!!!! of course! but giving them a long term solution to their
problems would obviously be preferable to screwing them sometime along
the line.

for example, writing a client application using a proprietary language
that "faded" away or was made into a "legacy" technology would certainly
cause some problems down the road if the client wanted some upgrades
done...perhaps there would not be any available programmers to do the
modifications, or perhaps the few available would be very
expensive...then the customer would have to recreate the wheel, as it
were, and create a brand new app that did almost the same thing!

or what happens if the customer upgrades his hardware or system in
future and needs to port the application over to the new system? what if
that proprietary app could NOT be ported over? with a standards based,
cross-platform, widely-used technology like java, the chances are it
would not cause that much headaches moving the app over to the new
system.

asj <> wrote in message news:<>...
> username wrote:
>
> > I am only interested in delivering functionality to my customers.
>
> ahhhh!!!! of course! but giving them a long term solution to their
> problems would obviously be preferable to screwing them sometime along
> the line.
>
> for example, writing a client application using a proprietary language
> that "faded" away or was made into a "legacy" technology would certainly
> cause some problems down the road if the client wanted some upgrades
> done...perhaps there would not be any available programmers to do the
> modifications, or perhaps the few available would be very
> expensive...then the customer would have to recreate the wheel, as it
> were, and create a brand new app that did almost the same thing!
>
> or what happens if the customer upgrades his hardware or system in
> future and needs to port the application over to the new system? what if
> that proprietary app could NOT be ported over? with a standards based,
> cross-platform, widely-used technology like java, the chances are it
> would not cause that much headaches moving the app over to the new
> system.

From that I conclude that "username" probably makes more money
than "asj". Software is all about functionality. Faster,
full-featured software always sells better that portable but
feature-limited counterpart. Nobody buys applications with
a thought that it will need to be ported sometime in the future.
If you are speaking of custom software then people buy
hardware+software solution. In this combination they want
software to get the most out of the hardware. If the hardware
is specialized then software will likely be non-portable.
Better use of underlying hardware also makes software more
efficient. That means better return on investment. That
means they can shorten the upgrade cycle and keep up
with the technology better.

Besides, what makes you think that current Java API won't fade away
or become obsolete 10 year from now?

John D. wrote:
> asj wrote:
>> cross-platform, widely-used technology like java, the
>> chances are it would not cause that much headaches moving
>> the app over to the new system.
>
> From that I conclude that "username" probably makes more
> money than "asj".

From that I conclude that you don't work with complex server-side
applications.

"asj" <> wrote in message news:...
> username wrote:
> > if that is true, then why are you flooding the groups with your java
> > advocacy?
>
>
> so you think that people should not advocate solution that they think
> are GOOD?

no, but you seem to be running a large campaign against everything that is
not java. I would say that a product that is already marketleader (which you
are claiming) does not need a campaign like that.

> or perhaps you wish that people should advocate BAD solutions?

no, what a strange idea.

> > I am only interested in delivering functionality to my customers.
>
> ahhhh!!!! of course! but giving them a long term solution to their
> problems would obviously be preferable to screwing them sometime along
> the line.

ask your user (after you told him how expensive your solution is)

> for example, writing a client application using a proprietary language
> that "faded" away or was made into a "legacy" technology would certainly
> cause some problems down the road if the client wanted some upgrades
> done...perhaps there would not be any available programmers to do the
> modifications, or perhaps the few available would be very
> expensive...then the customer would have to recreate the wheel, as it
> were, and create a brand new app that did almost the same thing!

same holds for java.

> or what happens if the customer upgrades his hardware or system in
> future and needs to port the application over to the new system? what if
> that proprietary app could NOT be ported over?

you are assuming all future hardware will have java JVM's ..... think about
it

> with a standards based,
> cross-platform, widely-used technology like java, the chances are it
> would not cause that much headaches moving the app over to the new
> system.

think again