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IT Java jobs (kind of light/sarcastic humor) :-)

 
 
tk
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      07-21-2003
> What are you going to do with an ad like this?
> "Qualified candidates must have a bachelors degree in Engineering; 5 yrs
> industry exp; 1-3 yrs exp in Documentum technologies, knowledge of the
> following technologies is a must - java, web technologies, C++, C,

Microsoft
> Visual C++, ODBC, OLEDB, ADO, java foundation classes, SQL, SQL Plus,
> ORACLE, Microsoft SQL Server, UNIX, solaris, HP Unix

programming/scripting,
> Linux, windows API programming, weblogic, documentum webtop, documentum

wdk
> 4, DCM suite of products, RightSite, XML, XSLT, Xpath, JDOM."
>
> Okay, some of us have worked in a lot of different technologies. I look at

a
> list like this and just skip it. Anyone this unreasonable probably will be
> impossible to work for. With the economy as bad as it is in IT I guess

they
> feel they will get what they want.


You bring up another interesting point!!!

For those that 'DO' have alot of technologies under their belt, that would
mean (in many cases) that they're job-hoppers
(unless they work for consulting firms and were lucky enough to bounce from
contract to contract doing all different types of technologies).
I thought that most employers don't like job-hoppers and would rather have
someone who will remain loyal to the company. Problem is that
the loyal programmers usually tend to work in 1-2 specific areas within the
company (and get really good at it) but they don't
have the hundreds of products under their belt that a job-hopper who works 3
months here, 6 months there, 5 months there, etc..
may have...

It's a double-edge sword. A super-smart lady that I know was laid off from
a job a few months back. She was a VC++ guru
with SQL server knowledge and worked on a VERY COMPLEX system for over 6
years. She stayed with the same company
and did one hell of a great job with them (ie, from table design to query
optimizations to crystal-report programming with C++
to MFC GUIS to you name it). Unfortunately, they laid her off and she went
into a job market where requirements like the one
you mentioned are commonplace. Thank God in heaven she was able to find
another job recently but she was out of work for a while.
So I guess all of that loyalty she showed for the company (staying with then
between 1998 to the present when she could have easily
gotten some cool Java jobs back in 1999-2000 when they were hiring C++
coders to do Java) did not mean squat to the other
companies that passed her over. She happened to know someone at her new
employer (who knows just how good/smart she
is) so she was able to get an interview as a result and get hired.

Back to the add:
> "Qualified candidates must have a bachelors degree in Engineering; 5 yrs
> industry exp; 1-3 yrs exp in Documentum technologies, knowledge of the
> following technologies is a must - java, web technologies, C++, C,

Microsoft
> Visual C++, ODBC, OLEDB, ADO, java foundation classes, SQL, SQL Plus,
> ORACLE, Microsoft SQL Server, UNIX, solaris, HP Unix

programming/scripting,
> Linux, windows API programming, weblogic, documentum webtop, documentum

wdk
> 4, DCM suite of products, RightSite, XML, XSLT, Xpath, JDOM."


How often will it be that 'ONE' company -or- even 'TWO' companies will let
you do all of the above !!??!! You have to be a big time job hopper to rack
up that kind of experience in most cases!! And companies don't like job
hoppers as much as they don't like people who have stayed at a company for a
long time and became good at the 1-3 technologies that they were using!!!

Yeah, back in 2001, I could have left my job (as a Java developer) to get
into a C#/.NET position (as they were training Java folks back then) but I
wanted to remain loyal to my company. Did not matter much though as we got
laid off 7 months later Now I don't have the C#/.NET experience (even
though I worked with VC++ and the win32 API for a few years) and no company
will even consider glancing at my resume for a C#/.NET position So I'm
(not a bad thing though) stuck in Java because the IT industry is the way it
is.



 
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Adam Maass
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      07-21-2003

"Sudsy" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> tk wrote:
> > Light humor here. Not complaining
> >
> > Getting back on the topic of companies requiring 1.2 years of this and

3.5
> > years of that and 2.0 years of this&that and "people without that need

not
> > apply", can one really say (like those ITT tech commercials) that IT is
> > really a career?
> >
> > I mean isn't an "IT career" a concept by which you can float into a
> > particular position and utilize your foundational knowledge to help you
> > migrate to other technologies within the same company... Wasn't an IT
> > career something that initially did not have all kinds of roadblocks?


> >
> > If the modern trend of companies is to instill roadblock after roadblock

on
> > IT professionals (about specific requirements and restrictions), then

there
> > really is no longer such a thing as an "IT career" if you're being
> > pigeon-holed into certain areas because you don't have "paid" experience

in
> > other areas that you'd like to get more into
> >
> > "IT careers", I guess, are basically concepts of yesteryear Now,
> > they're just "computer jobs" with the intent of utilize what you already
> > know without the intent of allowing you to grow further down different
> > technological realms

>
> You make some good points, ones which are lost on the HR department
> which is typically tasked with culling the huge piles of resumes
> likely to appear after the rare job posting.
> The "best" developers I've ever met have an innate curiousity. They
> love to solve problems amd some of the solutions they arrive at are
> incredibly elegant. You look at their code and sit in awe.
> THAT'S what employers should be looking for, people who can get the
> job done no matter what challenge you throw their way. Learn C++ in
> the course of a weekend? Been there, done that (only the essentials,
> natch).
> But as long as the HR department feels that finding good people is
> simply a matter of filling out a form and requiring X years of this
> and Y years of that, employers are going to be disappointed.
> What galls me is that the current structure doesn't give the hirer
> the chance to even review those resumes which don't meet listed
> requirements. And you can forget about receiving an aknowlegement
> letter or e-mail these days.
> Ah well, maybe a career as a MIG welder...yeah, that's the ticket!
>


I wish the industry would start forming a professional organization for IT
professionals -- akin to a professional Engineering organization. Put some
real, widely recognized, certifications in place -- more about "how to think
like a professional" than "what products do you know." It is galling that
the recruitment process so often screens out people who could do the job --
if only there were some flexiblity in the first few weeks or months to learn
the particular technologies in use. That innate curiosity is one of the
things that makes a good programmer, and is also oe of the things that is
not measured by checking off boxes on a form.

Building good, solid software systems that will stand the test of time is
what most programmers want to do. But not all organizations share those
goals: often the drive is completely feature-driven: we need it to do X, and
we need it to do X now, and we don't care if it will take twice as long to
make it do Y in the future as long as we get X as soon as we can. And then
turning around and saying: we need it to do Y, and we need it to do Y now,
and we don't care that the compromises to get X out the door makes doing Y
hard. I have lived through a development environment where large revenue
deals depended on Y and Z and on and on being delivered on a timely basis.
The compromises for each release only made each subsequent promise harder to
deliver. In this kind of environment, an instant understanding of the
technology is assumed to help get the next feature out of the door all that
much sooner. It's just unrealistic expectations piled one on top of another.



 
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Jon A. Cruz
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      07-21-2003
tk wrote:
> Thank God in heaven she was able to find
> another job recently but she was out of work for a while.


One rule of thumb here in the states is to expect to be out of work one
month for each $10,000 in salary that you expect.


> Now I don't have the C#/.NET experience (even
> though I worked with VC++ and the win32 API for a few years) and no company
> will even consider glancing at my resume for a C#/.NET position


It depends. One thing I've found is that those are exactly the shops you
want to try to stay away from.

The good engineering departments understand talent is important, and
will hire talented people that *could* do a job instead of just those
who have things on their resume. Many of them even hire people as they
become available so that they have them when projects start.

Remember, be prepared to look for some time if you want to end up
somewhere good.

 
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tk
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      07-21-2003
> and (2) exact some payback for programmers being such spoiled and fickle
beasts in the late 90s

Not all programmers were spoiled and fickle beasts in the late 90's. I
know quite a few who were loyal to their employers
who ended up suffering the most when the market "did" go bad. A friend of
mine back in another state is one of the most
loyal people to an employer that I know. She's a very smart C++/Java coder
who passed up on alot of opportunities to excel
in other technological areas because she wanted to remain loyal. Now she's
suffering because alot of companies are passing
her up for not having 1.5 years of this or 2 years of that (which should
could have EASILY obtained had she been a spoiled
and fickle beast)...

> fickle beasts in the late 90s. It's even back to formal attire in a
> few of these places, with it being openly expressed that if you don't
> like it, there are 1500+ programmers with MSCS degrees on file who'd
> love to have a job.


Not speaking for myself here!!! Those are the kind of places that will
suffer the most if/when the economy gets better. They ought
to know that the folks that they're abusing will get up and leave them and
find work elsewhere.

You know, it did not really start with the developers. I got into IT in
1988 when I finished college. Back in 1988, you just
had mainly OS/2 coming out, Unix being popular and still alot of mainframes.
Windows was not much of a factor.
Still alot of COBOL jobs and C was pretty much the thing to be in. Then C++
really started becoming adopted by companies
around 1990-1991 and you started seeing alot of companies migrating current
C apps to C++ around 1992-1993. Not really
much for a programmer to be "picky" or "fickle" about so you really did not
have programmers being fickle beasts then.
The economy went bad in 1992 thru early 1995 and companies were placing the
same rediculous requirements then on developers as they are now.
That's when you had 1 year experience in VC++ version 1.5 required (it was
not enough that you had worked with C++ in Borland's IDE using the Windows
SDK. You had to have done in using the VC++ IDE) postings, etc...

So really, employers are doing this again for the 2nd time in 10 years
So it's not just the developers
who may have been spoiled. It started out with the employers being spoiled
followed by the developers being spoiled and now it's back to
the employers being spoiled again You're right about the dress code.
In my last job (before we got laid off), we were able to come in casuals for
2 years and then it became apparent that we had to start wearing really nice
clothes and could not have flexible hours anymore and had to start doing
alot more paperwork.

You know, I wish I were in my father's era (he worked for the same company
for 37 years before retiring). Back in the days
where companies actually cared about their employees and gave them the
feeling of "belonging". Now it's, "you're lucky that we're even allowing
you the chance to work for us".

What I would not give to find an employer that does not instill fear of
layoffs and terminations as a way of life to their employees I'd work
for them forever and give them everything I have !!! Although even though
I'm working for companies on contracts, I give them everything I have too!!!
I just know though that there's no chance for career advancement at many of
those places even though I will always give 110%!!!






 
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ghl
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      07-21-2003
"Adam Maass" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
>
> "Sudsy" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> > tk wrote:
> > > Light humor here. Not complaining
> > >
> > > Getting back on the topic of companies requiring 1.2 years of this and

> 3.5
> > > years of that and 2.0 years of this&that and "people without that need

> not
> > > apply", can one really say (like those ITT tech commercials) that IT

is
> > > really a career?
> > >
> > > I mean isn't an "IT career" a concept by which you can float into a
> > > particular position and utilize your foundational knowledge to help

you
> > > migrate to other technologies within the same company... Wasn't an

IT
> > > career something that initially did not have all kinds of roadblocks?

>
> > >
> > > If the modern trend of companies is to instill roadblock after

roadblock
> on
> > > IT professionals (about specific requirements and restrictions), then

> there
> > > really is no longer such a thing as an "IT career" if you're being
> > > pigeon-holed into certain areas because you don't have "paid"

experience
> in
> > > other areas that you'd like to get more into
> > >
> > > "IT careers", I guess, are basically concepts of yesteryear

Now,
> > > they're just "computer jobs" with the intent of utilize what you

already
> > > know without the intent of allowing you to grow further down different
> > > technological realms


The real problem is employers seem to think that if a person has experience
(worked on) a given technology they are really capable of handling that
technology completely. Given enough time working with Java one can get
pretty good at Java, probably picking up a lot of classes and how to look
things up. But if you didn't work on web development you might not have much
background in servlets and jsp. But even if you did, you might not have had
to work on installing and configuring Apache and Tomcat (or one of several
other widely used web servers and containers). And even if you did, maybe
you didn't work on a unix box, etc.
The bosses have forgotten that what you want to hire is someone who can
"muddle" through problems even if they don't know the technology! Tonight's
story: I was just setting up a simple ActiveX component and a VB form to use
it (yeah, I know, this is a Java site) for a possible course in August (a
one day VBScript session) and I got a really strange error when I went to
run it. Hey, you don't get System Error &H8004015 every day. It took me
about 45 minutes to check it all out and find it was a missing element in a
registry setting for the Winlogon key. (Just finding the right key took
about 15 minutes on Knowledgebase. The error only applied to NT4.0, which
I'm running.) The point is: I know how to fiddle around until I find out
what is wrong and fix it. Not one employer ever asked me ANYTHING about the
registry, whether I even know what it is or if I had ever worked on it. And
believe me, I wouldn't want to tell them about it because the next thing you
will find is HR putting in "Must know Windows registry inside and out" in
all their "requirements." Face it: HR's job is to eliminate you from
consideration before the actual boss gets to talk with you.
I've been out of work since February, just working pick up days here and
there, and all teaching jobs. I can hardly wait for the fall classes to
begin. (Did I mention that I have been a programmer for 42 years and I think
I know how by now?)
--
Gary


 
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tk
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      07-21-2003
> will find is HR putting in "Must know Windows registry inside and out" in
> all their "requirements." Face it: HR's job is to eliminate you from
> consideration before the actual boss gets to talk with you.


Something's wrong with the business world when that mentality seems to be
common place They want someone who
knows it all, did it all *and* is willing to keep doing it all for pennies
on the dollar until they're finished with you and then
can let you go find someone else ;-P

> I've been out of work since February, just working pick up days here and
> there, and all teaching jobs. I can hardly wait for the fall classes to
> begin. (Did I mention that I have been a programmer for 42 years and I

think
> I know how by now?)


Another thing about the IT field. Because of the human resources
requirements and just because it's "the way it is",
the computer field is one of those fields where experience in terms of
"time-in-the-field" does not mean much to the
employers anymore (although it should!). Sadly, for a job doing XYZ,
they're still going to pick a person fresh from school with maybe
1 year of XYZ over a seasoned veteran like yourself who may not have had the
chance to do XYZ (but you have
had the chance to do hundreds of other things). I have 15 years IT in
C++/Java but I don't even consider that
competitive for an Oracle position (for example) as I have JDBC experience
but never had the chance to do
PL/SQL. Most employers consider experience in "outdated" technologies a
total waste and not valid rather than
accepting the fact that you were able to understand those technologies when
they came out at the time.

Another thing you rarely see in IT job requirements is a desire with someone
who has knowledge in certain application
domains (ie, manufacturing, retail, chemistry, health industry, etc..).
Every company is so hung up on "product" or "api"
experience that they overlook the fact that it's (in most cases) more
difficult/challenging to understand the companies'
domain then it is to do the coding. In my current job, I'm doing alot of
presentation tier development in Swing. Ok, employers
may not get excited and say (so what, you're just a dime per 100 dozen).
But the application is an extremely complex 3-tier
app and there is an awful lot of chemistry terms/knowledge needed and we
take Swing to it's limits. The app is also driven by
data (ie, app metadata) and makes use of most of the GoF design patterns.
Most future employers don't care one bit about that.
All they'll see is "JFC/Swing" and say, "Nah... He's just ANOTHER one of
thousands doing swing. Toss that resume in the
garbage immediately" But "when" they do hire you, they'll expect you to
not have to spend much time getting up to speed in
the domain It's another "overlooked" time-consuming responsibility
for the developer.

In most new jobs I start, I spent most of the time for the first month or
two trying to understand the data models and relationships
between tables and applications rather than trying to focus on what
version5.1.2 of this particular language is doing(although the
job requirement lists only "version5.1.2" required and says nothing about
the application domain) It only takes a day to 3
to figure out what "version 5.1.2" is doing but takes 1-3 months to
understand the whole application.. Yet, 1.5 years of "version 5.1.2."
required is listed on the requirements

Gotta love it





 
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ghl
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      07-21-2003
"Brad BARCLAY" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:j9VSa.18363$(E-Mail Removed) e.rogers.com...
> tk wrote:
> >>potential than what is currently available, write and have papers
> >>published, work on Open Source projects, speak at conferences, etc. I
> >>have better ways of putting food on the table and money in my pocket
> >>than being treated like crap as most of us are in the corporate IT

field.
> >
> >
> > I admire/respect you for your reply! Well said and nothing but the

best of
> > luck!!

>
> Thank-you. I have an interview for my new career choice Wednesday, so
> wish me luck .
>
> I'm not exactly ready to talk publically about my new career choice
> just yet, but once things are settled, I've been thinking about putting
> up a website about it, and why I think students going into
> college/university should stay away from IT careers, and steer
> themsevles into something more worthwhile.


I wish you wouldn't. I've already had two classes I teach cancelled out from
under me due to low enrollment. I need more programmer wannabes in the
college!
--
Gary


 
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Ed Jensen
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      07-21-2003
Richard <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
: It's even back to formal attire in a
: few of these places, with it being openly expressed that if you don't
: like it, there are 1500+ programmers with MSCS degrees on file who'd
: love to have a job.

And the rational for the switch back to formal attire is...?

-Ed
 
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Brad BARCLAY
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      07-21-2003
ghl wrote:

>>I'm not exactly ready to talk publically about my new career choice
>>just yet, but once things are settled, I've been thinking about putting
>>up a website about it, and why I think students going into
>>college/university should stay away from IT careers, and steer
>>themsevles into something more worthwhile.

>
>
> I wish you wouldn't. I've already had two classes I teach cancelled out from
> under me due to low enrollment. I need more programmer wannabes in the
> college!


Well, I feel your pain there. My feeling is that most students
shouldn't approch computer science with the desire of getting an IT-type
job, but instead either with the intent of being a computer scientist
(in academia or a research institute of some sort), or with the intent
of having useful skills in a non-IT job.

I wouldn't tell anyone to _not_ take Computer Science or programming
courses, but just to do so for the right reasons. I went through
university with all sorts of students in the mid 90's who were there "to
get a job that pays lots of money", who didn't even know how to operate
a mouse. Many of these people dropped out (typically switching
programs), but I'm sure there are many out there who sufficiently scrape
by to get into a thankless IT job (or to find that it's harder to get a
job with their CS degree than it is to get one with a Philosophy degree,
and get into some other career).

Brad BARCLAY

--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
From the OS/2 WARP v4.5 Desktop of Brad BARCLAY.
The jSyncManager Project: http://www.jsyncmanager.org

 
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Jon A. Cruz
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      07-22-2003
Ed Jensen wrote:
> Richard <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> : It's even back to formal attire in a
> : few of these places, with it being openly expressed that if you don't
> : like it, there are 1500+ programmers with MSCS degrees on file who'd
> : love to have a job.
>
> And the rational for the switch back to formal attire is...?
>
> -Ed


Why, to beat programmers back into submission, as all lowly workers
should be.

 
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