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IDE favorite

 
 
Ken
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      07-09-2003
I've been using Jedit for quite a while and I'm pretty happy with it.
Its free and open-source.

http://www.jedit.org

Ken


"ed collins" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message news:<Z8AOa.8335$N7.1053@sccrnsc03>...
> I'm a college student and am in the process of learning Java and OOP. What
> is the most popular IDE to create Java programs?
>
> Any and all replies would certainly be appreciated.
>
> ed.

 
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Dale King
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      07-10-2003
"Paul Guermonprez" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:begjga$2m6d$(E-Mail Removed)...
>
>
> Dale King wrote:
> > "Steve" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> > news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> >
> >>I'd totaly agree - use a basic text editor for learning Java. If you
> >>want nice colours for keywords etc then use something like EditPlus or
> >>TextPad - search the web for free/shareware tools.

>
> vi and xemacs have wonderfull syntax highlighters and lot of features.


Vi or emacs for a NEWBIE??! You've got to be kidding! No IDE in the world
has as steep a learning curve as either one of them.

> > I totally disagree. And what does the poor newbie do when his program
> > doesn't work since he doesn't have a debugger? Imagine the nightmare

trying
> > to figure out how to correctly compile a larger program spanning

multiple
> > packages from the command line.

>
> i always did that way ... and i'm rather quick, for large projects too.
> the closer you are from the code, the less you have to debug,


Well, I'm not sure what you mean by being closer to the code. You are
working with source code either way.

We were talking about someone learning the language and OOP. They are very
far from understanding the code and they have lots to debug. The use of a
good debugger is very helpful for getting them to understand the code.

What I see when a newbie does not have a good debugger they will resort to
trial and error debugging. They will try things to see if it fixes it rather
than try to actually understand what is going on.

> and the less you have to learn how to use an ide.


Nothing much to learn with the BlueJ IDE. Certainly much, much less than for
using javac.

> vi and xemacs will last for ever, even if you use
> different languages. your ide ... i'm not sure.


I'm sure they will last for at least a generation, until the old Unix
hackers die off.

> of course use ant, without ant large projects are a nightmare.
> he don't have to use command line, ant is a good enough practice.


For a Newbie!!?? Ant is certainly not something I would inflict on someone
just learning the language.


--
Dale King


 
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Sudsy
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      07-10-2003
Dale King wrote:
<snip>
> Vi or emacs for a NEWBIE??! You've got to be kidding! No IDE in the world
> has as steep a learning curve as either one of them.


Can I have some of those drugs you're taking?! vi has a steeper
learning curve than IDEs?
Seriously, most IDEs I've seen seen have multiple windows, all
manner of screen navigations, lots of hot-keys, multiple modes,
etc.
vi has just two modes: insert and command. WYSIWYG and you only
need to learn a handful of keystrokes to get started. There's
also no requirement for a mouse, something you generally can't
claim for those IDEs I've encountered.
The command-line along with a simple editor is still not a bad
way to learn Java if you have the javadocs available either in
a book or in a browser window.
YM obviously Vs.

 
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Steve
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      07-10-2003
On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 01:14:27 -0400, Sudsy <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:

>Dale King wrote:
><snip>
>> Vi or emacs for a NEWBIE??! You've got to be kidding! No IDE in the world
>> has as steep a learning curve as either one of them.

>
>Can I have some of those drugs you're taking?! vi has a steeper
>learning curve than IDEs?


Presumably, it's the Blue pill he took?

If vi has a steep learning curve then stick to notepad, you have no
hope of getting to grips with anything more complex. Better yet, go
back to the abacus.

~ If emailing, please use: Steve_A_Haigh
~ @
~ hotmail.com
~
 
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Steve
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      07-10-2003
On Tue, 8 Jul 2003 18:26:05 -0500, "Dale King" <(E-Mail Removed)>
wrote:

>
>> A good IDE will do a lot of the work for you, which totaly defeats the
>> object [no pun intended] of learning the language.

>
>Since when is the work of building the code, part of the language? That is
>just learning a tool that is not part of the language.
>


Not true, if you mean learning the syntax, maybe, but to learn a
language you need to understand the interdependence between classes,
and in any sensible application that means multiple files, you need to
undertand how Javac picks up classes, I'd say that was part of the
language.

>> I also do not think
>> you will see any productivity gain if you are working on small
>> projects and building simple classes to learn features of the
>> langauge. I don't think you even need source code control, but if you
>> do I'd go for CVS. Any may be useful if you build a complex project
>> with a lot of classes, but I don't recal a need for it when I was at
>> University.

>
>That is why most IDE's are not a good fit for learning the language. There
>is an IDE specifically designed for learning OOP and the language without
>requiring you to learn arcane command line tools. It also has a good
>debugger and facilities to help visualize the program.
>
>That IDE is BlueJ (www.bluej.org).


I'd agree, it looks nice.
>
>> Learn the language first, then when you want to build a production
>> system look for the most suitable IDE - you'll want different IDEs for
>> different environments (e.g. J2ME for a cell phone has completely
>> different needs to a J2EE application, and a J2SE Swing app will be
>> different again).

>
>I agree. Learn the language first. That is why I recommend BlueJ. Your
>approach requires learning a tool which is essentially just a really bad
>IDE.
>
>> I develop Java and C++ enterprise applications for a living and I use
>> Notepad more than I use JBuilder and the like.

>
>It's your loss.


Not really. Unless BlueJ supports Perl, Unix scripts, C++, Java, C,
Ada, Pascal, Assembler, C#, text (OK, it probably does this one), XML,
HTML, JSP, ASP and SQL (T/SQL and PL/SQL) then I think I'll stick with
my text editor thanks. In the time it takes to learn the latest and
greatest IDE for each of these I think I will have died of boredom and
not written any code. I use IDEs when I work full time day in day out
in one langauge, but when I switch between langauges day to day I
don't have time.

By the way, I recently saw a presentation by Erich Gamma on the
Eclipse project. That is impresive, so I'm prepared to go back on
everything I just said when I get a chance to look at it.


~ If emailing, please use: Steve_A_Haigh
~ @
~ hotmail.com
~
 
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Tim Tyler
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      07-10-2003
Jeroen Wenting <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

: Another nice one is Eclipse, though that might be a bit hard to set up
: correctly for a newbie (who could quickly become frustrated by Eclipse
: 'features' like taking a JRE instead of JDK as the default Java environment
: (which can prevent compilation from working...).

Eclipse has its own built-in compiler.

Should we assume you are talking about the beginner who is calling the
com.sun.tools.javac package to compile his own code programatically?

I agree that Eclipse could be a PITA for a newcomer to set up, though
--
__________
|im |yler http://timtyler.org/ http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/(E-Mail Removed)
 
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Paul Guermonprez
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      07-10-2003
most beginners i know use xemacs and are
extremely happy with it. even for main text editing
like reports.

of course you have to tell them how to enable
syntax highlighting and that sort of things ...
xemacs is extremely user-friendly, you have a button
for every function you need.


Dale King wrote:
> "Paul Guermonprez" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
> news:begjga$2m6d$(E-Mail Removed)...
>
>>
>>Dale King wrote:
>>
>>>"Steve" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
>>>news:(E-Mail Removed) ...
>>>
>>>
>>>>I'd totaly agree - use a basic text editor for learning Java. If you
>>>>want nice colours for keywords etc then use something like EditPlus or
>>>>TextPad - search the web for free/shareware tools.

>>
>>vi and xemacs have wonderfull syntax highlighters and lot of features.

>
>
> Vi or emacs for a NEWBIE??! You've got to be kidding! No IDE in the world
> has as steep a learning curve as either one of them.
>
>
>>>I totally disagree. And what does the poor newbie do when his program
>>>doesn't work since he doesn't have a debugger? Imagine the nightmare

>
> trying
>
>>>to figure out how to correctly compile a larger program spanning

>
> multiple
>
>>>packages from the command line.

>>
>>i always did that way ... and i'm rather quick, for large projects too.
>>the closer you are from the code, the less you have to debug,

>
>
> Well, I'm not sure what you mean by being closer to the code. You are
> working with source code either way.
>
> We were talking about someone learning the language and OOP. They are very
> far from understanding the code and they have lots to debug. The use of a
> good debugger is very helpful for getting them to understand the code.
>
> What I see when a newbie does not have a good debugger they will resort to
> trial and error debugging. They will try things to see if it fixes it rather
> than try to actually understand what is going on.
>
>
>>and the less you have to learn how to use an ide.

>
>
> Nothing much to learn with the BlueJ IDE. Certainly much, much less than for
> using javac.
>
>
>>vi and xemacs will last for ever, even if you use
>>different languages. your ide ... i'm not sure.

>
>
> I'm sure they will last for at least a generation, until the old Unix
> hackers die off.
>
>
>>of course use ant, without ant large projects are a nightmare.
>>he don't have to use command line, ant is a good enough practice.

>
>
> For a Newbie!!?? Ant is certainly not something I would inflict on someone
> just learning the language.
>
>
> --
> Dale King
>
>


 
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Jon Skeet
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Posts: n/a
 
      07-10-2003
Steve <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:
> >> I develop Java and C++ enterprise applications for a living and I use
> >> Notepad more than I use JBuilder and the like.

> >
> >It's your loss.

>
> Not really. Unless BlueJ supports Perl, Unix scripts, C++, Java, C,
> Ada, Pascal, Assembler, C#, text (OK, it probably does this one), XML,
> HTML, JSP, ASP and SQL (T/SQL and PL/SQL) then I think I'll stick with
> my text editor thanks. In the time it takes to learn the latest and
> greatest IDE for each of these I think I will have died of boredom and
> not written any code. I use IDEs when I work full time day in day out
> in one langauge, but when I switch between langauges day to day I
> don't have time.


Even if you're not going to use an IDE which directly knows how to
compile/debug each of those languages, almost *any* editor is going to
be better than Notepad. For instance, just using Eclipse and setting
everything up as text files will give you version histories, CVS
access, multiple buffers, etc - far better than Notepad.

There is certainly a place for a powerful text editor in every
developer's toolbox - but Notepad is *not* a powerful text editor.

--
Jon Skeet - <(E-Mail Removed)>
http://www.pobox.com/~skeet/
If replying to the group, please do not mail me too
 
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Dale King
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      07-10-2003
"Steve" <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote in message
news:(E-Mail Removed)...
> On Thu, 10 Jul 2003 01:14:27 -0400, Sudsy <(E-Mail Removed)>
> wrote:
>
> >Dale King wrote:
> ><snip>
> >> Vi or emacs for a NEWBIE??! You've got to be kidding! No IDE in the

world
> >> has as steep a learning curve as either one of them.

> >
> >Can I have some of those drugs you're taking?! vi has a steeper
> >learning curve than IDEs?


Try putting someone who knows nothing about vi in front of it and ask them
to make a few simple edits. Don't give them any documentation and see how
long it takes them. I'm pretty sure it would be less time than doing the
same in an IDE.

> Presumably, it's the Blue pill he took?
>
> If vi has a steep learning curve


It does have a steep learning curve. If for no other reason than the fact
that it works totally different than any other editor out there. Your
experience from any other editor does not help you and actually works
against you.

I don't want to get into VI bashing. If it works for you use it. But the
notion that it is suitable for newbies is pure nonsense.

> then stick to notepad,


Actually notepad is a not good for newbies because of the chances that it
might save your file as .java.text.

> you have no
> hope of getting to grips with anything more complex. Better yet, go
> back to the abacus.


I think you have that backwards. You were the one advocating primitive tools
instead of an IDE sophisticated enough to help you learn the language.

--
Dale King


 
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Tim Tyler
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      07-10-2003
David Segall <(E-Mail Removed)> wrote:

: Eclipse lacks a GUI developer which means you have to lay out your user
: interface on paper instead of on the screen.

"Visual Builder for Eclipse"
http://www.assisiplugins.com/index_start.html
--
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|im |yler http://timtyler.org/ (E-Mail Removed)
 
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