«

yup, .net is at least ten times harder to learn, and but you can't learn it all, and everything takes 10 times as long to build.

The difference between ASP.Net and ASP which makes the biggest difference in
terms of productivity is not the IDE, the drag 'n Drop capabilities, or any
of that stuff that beginners think it is. The biggest difference in terms of
productivity is simply this: ASP.Net is object-oriented.

OOP was created as an answer to the increasing complexity of software. In
actuality there is no difference between what an OOP program does; but there
is a big difference in terms of how it does it.

When OOP is fully-utilized, one spends a lot more time up front
architecting, designing, planning, and creating extensible, reusable
classes. It is in the long run that OOP becomes much easier and faster than
Procedural programming, if one knows how to use it correctly.

Take the ASP.Net Controls that ship with the .Net platform 2.0. Many people
think that these *are* the tools you use to build your ASP.Net applications.
Not so. They can be used in part as tools for an ASP.Net application, but
more importantly, one has the ability to create custom controls that either
host these controls, or perform whatever sort of custom operations are
necessary. When designing an app, one must identify the logical components
of that app which should be business classes and UI classes. The more one
thinks ahead, the easier it gets in the long run.

For example, I have been writing ASP.Net apps for at least 3 years. I now
have my own personal set of a dozen or so class libraries which perform
different operations and functions, and often re-use them in different apps.
This is much harder to do with a procedural programming paradigm, and even
more difficult when talking about a scripted technology such as Classic ASP.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
To a tea you esteem
a hurting back as a wallet.


"dm1608" <> wrote in message
news:%23xb88i%...
>I know all the hype right now from Microsoft is how much easier, faster,
>and less code ASP.NET 2.0 provides over previous versions. I'm puzzled by
>this as I could turn out an classic ASP webpage in a few hours to query a
>database, display a grid/table, and not have much to worry about. Doing
>the same tasks in ASP.NET 2.0 seems almost trivial, but is it really
>real-world?
>
> I have a classic ASP app that I wrote a few years back that took me
> probably 6-8 hours to write, debug, and deploy. I haven't really touched
> it since. It has simply an input form that will post back to itself and
> display a grid/table with the results from a query.
>
> Since I'm trying to get on the ASP.NET 2.0 bandwagon, I thought that
> simple ASP application would be a perfect "starter" application for my
> ASP.NET 2.0 journey. Sure, I drag and drop a table onto the design
> service, wire up a GridView to a SQLDataSource and junk, but the real
> challenge is implementing these drag-and-drop objects in a real world
> scenario.
>
> I've been spent approx. 40+ hours on converting this ASP webpage (a single
> page, mind you) to ASP.NET 2.0. I'm trying to do an n-tier design and
> have a DAL, BAL, along with the ASP.NET 2.0 front-end. I haven't even
> gotten to designing a nice "Master" page for site's theme yet.
>
> The concepts seem simple... and some of the results seem pretty
> impressive.
>
> My current struggle is dealing with nullable datatypes coming back from
> SQL Server for a datetime field. Some of you may have read my previous
> thread where I am struggling in getting a NULL DateTime field to add to my
> generic collection. I keep getting InvalidCastExceptions. I'm about 90%
> done with my code, but this one issue is driving me nuts... I've
> literally spent 10+ hours on this one issue and still do not have it
> resolved.
>
> I've seen a few online examples writing an n-tier design for ASP.NET 2.0
> but most just deal with strings and not mixed data types. I've watched
> about 10 different webcasts the latest tricks and ways of doing things...
> even Fritz Onion's Essential ASP.NET 2.0 webcast series.... I've
> purchased all the latest Microsoft .NET 2005 books. Not much in there
> about BAL/DAL best practices.
>
> Six months from now, this may seem like a trivial challenge, but for a
> newbie learning ASP.NET 2.0, I'm having a hard time justifying the savings
> with going to the new technology. Yeah, my code is more object
> oriented... my code and visual content is separate... and I've totally
> abstracted my business data from my data access. Very cool. But what is
> the cost of all these "advantages"? I still do not have a working
> application and Microsoft taughts ASP.NET is far superior and easier than
> ASP.
>
> I"ve run into other issues along the way and thanks to the kind folks in
> these newsgroups, I've resolved them. I'm not master programmer, mind
> you, and simply do this for fun and as a hobby... although I do write some
> web applications to solve problems at work... it is not my primary
> function.
>
> I'm curious to know how others feel about the new programming environment
> and how they're adapting to the new technologies and programming
> requirements.
>
> Does ASP.NET 2.0 really make your life easier than classic ASP or using
> some other server-side scripting technology such as PHP or Cold Fusion?
>
>
>
>
>

Don't get my wrong.

I love ASP.NET. And yes, there is a huge learning curve and I'm sure once I
get the hang of it, things that are taking me hours now will take me minutes
later...

I'm just surprised how how simple many of the examples that Microsoft
provides on MSDN and their webcasts that just don't provide real world
examples of doing something. My recent post regarding my issue with using
ObjectDataSource and having a DBNull value returned from a SmallDateTime
field within my SQL was causing me "InvalidCastExceptions" within my BAL and
took me hours to figure this out -- luckily the kind folks in this group
showed me how to get around this. Isn't this a common scenario for most
database applications? I can see where there are often perfectly valid
reasons to have a NULL in a SmallDateTime field. It would seem that there
should be more examples demonstrating how to workaround these sorts of
issues.





"Kevin Spencer" <> wrote in message
news:%...
> The difference between ASP.Net and ASP which makes the biggest difference
> in terms of productivity is not the IDE, the drag 'n Drop capabilities, or
> any of that stuff that beginners think it is. The biggest difference in
> terms of productivity is simply this: ASP.Net is object-oriented.
>
> OOP was created as an answer to the increasing complexity of software. In
> actuality there is no difference between what an OOP program does; but
> there is a big difference in terms of how it does it.
>
> When OOP is fully-utilized, one spends a lot more time up front
> architecting, designing, planning, and creating extensible, reusable
> classes. It is in the long run that OOP becomes much easier and faster
> than Procedural programming, if one knows how to use it correctly.
>
> Take the ASP.Net Controls that ship with the .Net platform 2.0. Many
> people think that these *are* the tools you use to build your ASP.Net
> applications. Not so. They can be used in part as tools for an ASP.Net
> application, but more importantly, one has the ability to create custom
> controls that either host these controls, or perform whatever sort of
> custom operations are necessary. When designing an app, one must identify
> the logical components of that app which should be business classes and UI
> classes. The more one thinks ahead, the easier it gets in the long run.
>
> For example, I have been writing ASP.Net apps for at least 3 years. I now
> have my own personal set of a dozen or so class libraries which perform
> different operations and functions, and often re-use them in different
> apps. This is much harder to do with a procedural programming paradigm,
> and even more difficult when talking about a scripted technology such as
> Classic ASP.
>
> --
> HTH,
>
> Kevin Spencer
> Microsoft MVP
> .Net Developer
> To a tea you esteem
> a hurting back as a wallet.
>
>
> "dm1608" <> wrote in message
> news:%23xb88i%...
>>I know all the hype right now from Microsoft is how much easier, faster,
>>and less code ASP.NET 2.0 provides over previous versions. I'm puzzled
>>by this as I could turn out an classic ASP webpage in a few hours to query
>>a database, display a grid/table, and not have much to worry about. Doing
>>the same tasks in ASP.NET 2.0 seems almost trivial, but is it really
>>real-world?
>>
>> I have a classic ASP app that I wrote a few years back that took me
>> probably 6-8 hours to write, debug, and deploy. I haven't really touched
>> it since. It has simply an input form that will post back to itself and
>> display a grid/table with the results from a query.
>>
>> Since I'm trying to get on the ASP.NET 2.0 bandwagon, I thought that
>> simple ASP application would be a perfect "starter" application for my
>> ASP.NET 2.0 journey. Sure, I drag and drop a table onto the design
>> service, wire up a GridView to a SQLDataSource and junk, but the real
>> challenge is implementing these drag-and-drop objects in a real world
>> scenario.
>>
>> I've been spent approx. 40+ hours on converting this ASP webpage (a
>> single page, mind you) to ASP.NET 2.0. I'm trying to do an n-tier
>> design and have a DAL, BAL, along with the ASP.NET 2.0 front-end. I
>> haven't even gotten to designing a nice "Master" page for site's theme
>> yet.
>>
>> The concepts seem simple... and some of the results seem pretty
>> impressive.
>>
>> My current struggle is dealing with nullable datatypes coming back from
>> SQL Server for a datetime field. Some of you may have read my previous
>> thread where I am struggling in getting a NULL DateTime field to add to
>> my generic collection. I keep getting InvalidCastExceptions. I'm about
>> 90% done with my code, but this one issue is driving me nuts... I've
>> literally spent 10+ hours on this one issue and still do not have it
>> resolved.
>>
>> I've seen a few online examples writing an n-tier design for ASP.NET 2.0
>> but most just deal with strings and not mixed data types. I've watched
>> about 10 different webcasts the latest tricks and ways of doing things...
>> even Fritz Onion's Essential ASP.NET 2.0 webcast series.... I've
>> purchased all the latest Microsoft .NET 2005 books. Not much in there
>> about BAL/DAL best practices.
>>
>> Six months from now, this may seem like a trivial challenge, but for a
>> newbie learning ASP.NET 2.0, I'm having a hard time justifying the
>> savings with going to the new technology. Yeah, my code is more object
>> oriented... my code and visual content is separate... and I've totally
>> abstracted my business data from my data access. Very cool. But what is
>> the cost of all these "advantages"? I still do not have a working
>> application and Microsoft taughts ASP.NET is far superior and easier than
>> ASP.
>>
>> I"ve run into other issues along the way and thanks to the kind folks in
>> these newsgroups, I've resolved them. I'm not master programmer, mind
>> you, and simply do this for fun and as a hobby... although I do write
>> some web applications to solve problems at work... it is not my primary
>> function.
>>
>> I'm curious to know how others feel about the new programming environment
>> and how they're adapting to the new technologies and programming
>> requirements.
>>
>> Does ASP.NET 2.0 really make your life easier than classic ASP or using
>> some other server-side scripting technology such as PHP or Cold Fusion?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

> I'm just surprised how how simple many of the examples that Microsoft
> provides on MSDN and their webcasts that just don't provide real world
> examples of doing something.

I can certainly understand your frustration. I spend an hour or more a day
researching various problems, but I have come to the conclusion that this is
simply due to the scope and complexity of the CLR. There have been many
times when I wished that the MSDN Library had more information, but I have a
copy of the MSDN Library on my machine here at work and at home, and it's
simply huge. One cannot expect a resource of that scope to have a lot of
detail about much of anything.

I do believe though, that the various newsgroups (such as this one) and the
various support web sites run both by Microsoft and by individuals, are the
greater part of the solution. The Microsoft newsgroups in particular are a
tremendous resource, where people can ask specific questions and get
specific answers. And my Favorites folder is packed with web references.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
To a tea you esteem
a hurting back as a wallet.


"dm1608" <> wrote in message
news:...
> Don't get my wrong.
>
> I love ASP.NET. And yes, there is a huge learning curve and I'm sure once
> I get the hang of it, things that are taking me hours now will take me
> minutes later...
>
> I'm just surprised how how simple many of the examples that Microsoft
> provides on MSDN and their webcasts that just don't provide real world
> examples of doing something. My recent post regarding my issue with using
> ObjectDataSource and having a DBNull value returned from a SmallDateTime
> field within my SQL was causing me "InvalidCastExceptions" within my BAL
> and took me hours to figure this out -- luckily the kind folks in this
> group showed me how to get around this. Isn't this a common scenario for
> most database applications? I can see where there are often perfectly
> valid reasons to have a NULL in a SmallDateTime field. It would seem that
> there should be more examples demonstrating how to workaround these sorts
> of issues.
>
>
>
>
>
> "Kevin Spencer" <> wrote in message
> news:%...
>> The difference between ASP.Net and ASP which makes the biggest difference
>> in terms of productivity is not the IDE, the drag 'n Drop capabilities,
>> or any of that stuff that beginners think it is. The biggest difference
>> in terms of productivity is simply this: ASP.Net is object-oriented.
>>
>> OOP was created as an answer to the increasing complexity of software. In
>> actuality there is no difference between what an OOP program does; but
>> there is a big difference in terms of how it does it.
>>
>> When OOP is fully-utilized, one spends a lot more time up front
>> architecting, designing, planning, and creating extensible, reusable
>> classes. It is in the long run that OOP becomes much easier and faster
>> than Procedural programming, if one knows how to use it correctly.
>>
>> Take the ASP.Net Controls that ship with the .Net platform 2.0. Many
>> people think that these *are* the tools you use to build your ASP.Net
>> applications. Not so. They can be used in part as tools for an ASP.Net
>> application, but more importantly, one has the ability to create custom
>> controls that either host these controls, or perform whatever sort of
>> custom operations are necessary. When designing an app, one must identify
>> the logical components of that app which should be business classes and
>> UI classes. The more one thinks ahead, the easier it gets in the long
>> run.
>>
>> For example, I have been writing ASP.Net apps for at least 3 years. I now
>> have my own personal set of a dozen or so class libraries which perform
>> different operations and functions, and often re-use them in different
>> apps. This is much harder to do with a procedural programming paradigm,
>> and even more difficult when talking about a scripted technology such as
>> Classic ASP.
>>
>> --
>> HTH,
>>
>> Kevin Spencer
>> Microsoft MVP
>> .Net Developer
>> To a tea you esteem
>> a hurting back as a wallet.