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Steve B 01-01-2013 09:10 PM

Basic photo question
 
Let's say that I change my setting for either aperture, speed, or manual
priority.

I set the aperture for depth of focus, and the camera selects the speed.
I set the speed to freeze motion, and the camera selects the aperture.
I put it on manual, and can set both, even intentionally off if I want to.

Now, the question. I turn on the flash.

Does the camera use the settings I put in, or does it go into control of the
camera, and change any of the settings? I have taken many photos of the
same thing at many various settings, and I do know the photos come out
differently. I was just wondering about this part of the camera's actual
functioning.

I apologize for the basic question, but I want to learn this from the ABC's
up, and I have a few missing letters.

Steve




Martin Brown 01-01-2013 09:31 PM

Re: Basic photo question
 
On 01/01/2013 21:10, Steve B wrote:
> Let's say that I change my setting for either aperture, speed, or manual
> priority.
>
> I set the aperture for depth of focus, and the camera selects the speed.
> I set the speed to freeze motion, and the camera selects the aperture.
> I put it on manual, and can set both, even intentionally off if I want to.
>
> Now, the question. I turn on the flash.


It depends on the camera *and* on the flash. Some P&S are stupid and
will expose for a seriously long (ie blurring time) even with their puny
flash enabled - and destroy their battery life into the bargain.

A high power dedicated smart flash can take control of the camera and
force an exposure time that ensures the focal plane shutter is wide open
at the instant that flash fires and as little other ambient light gets
in as possible. This usually gives the sharpest results.

There is usually only one optimal flash sync speed for this but some
cameras will attempt to use ambient light as well.
>
> Does the camera use the settings I put in, or does it go into control of the
> camera, and change any of the settings? I have taken many photos of the
> same thing at many various settings, and I do know the photos come out
> differently. I was just wondering about this part of the camera's actual
> functioning.
>
> I apologize for the basic question, but I want to learn this from the ABC's
> up, and I have a few missing letters.


The answer is far from straight forward these days and the behaviour of
some modern cameras is decidedly less than ideal.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

Robert Coe 01-01-2013 10:17 PM

Re: Basic photo question
 
On Tue, 1 Jan 2013 14:10:24 -0700, "Steve B" <steveb@gmail.com> wrote:
: Let's say that I change my setting for either aperture, speed, or manual
: priority.
:
: I set the aperture for depth of focus, and the camera selects the speed.
: I set the speed to freeze motion, and the camera selects the aperture.
: I put it on manual, and can set both, even intentionally off if I want to.
:
: Now, the question. I turn on the flash.
:
: Does the camera use the settings I put in, or does it go into control of
: the camera, and change any of the settings? I have taken many photos of
: the same thing at many various settings, and I do know the photos come out
: differently. I was just wondering about this part of the camera's actual
: functioning.
:
: I apologize for the basic question, but I want to learn this from the ABC's
: up, and I have a few missing letters.

That's a very complex question that has no short answer. It depends on the
camera, the flash unit, and the chosen settings for each. To obtain a reliable
answer, you'll have to read the manuals for both the camera and the flash
you're using, then come back with more specific questions about what you
didn't understand in the manuals.

And don't imagine that it's a great simplification if you're using the
camera's built-in flash. Unless you're too knowledgeable to have asked such a
broad question, you can regard the built-in flash as simply a rather lame
external flash that happens to be located on the camera and pointed in the
same direction as the lens.

Bob

Tony Cooper 01-01-2013 10:32 PM

Re: Basic photo question
 
On Tue, 01 Jan 2013 17:17:29 -0500, Robert Coe <bob@1776.COM> wrote:

>On Tue, 1 Jan 2013 14:10:24 -0700, "Steve B" <steveb@gmail.com> wrote:
>: Let's say that I change my setting for either aperture, speed, or manual
>: priority.
>:
>: I set the aperture for depth of focus, and the camera selects the speed.
>: I set the speed to freeze motion, and the camera selects the aperture.
>: I put it on manual, and can set both, even intentionally off if I want to.
>:
>: Now, the question. I turn on the flash.
>:
>: Does the camera use the settings I put in, or does it go into control of
>: the camera, and change any of the settings? I have taken many photos of
>: the same thing at many various settings, and I do know the photos come out
>: differently. I was just wondering about this part of the camera's actual
>: functioning.
>:
>: I apologize for the basic question, but I want to learn this from the ABC's
>: up, and I have a few missing letters.
>
>That's a very complex question that has no short answer. It depends on the
>camera, the flash unit, and the chosen settings for each. To obtain a reliable
>answer, you'll have to read the manuals for both the camera and the flash
>you're using, then come back with more specific questions about what you
>didn't understand in the manuals.
>
>And don't imagine that it's a great simplification if you're using the
>camera's built-in flash. Unless you're too knowledgeable to have asked such a
>broad question, you can regard the built-in flash as simply a rather lame
>external flash that happens to be located on the camera and pointed in the
>same direction as the lens.


He doesn't really have to read the manual to know. All he has to do
is take a series of photos and then look at the EXIF data. If he knows
what his settings were, he can compare that to the actual settings the
camera used.

On my Nikon, it's even simpler. Just look at the LCD on the back
after each shot and read the numbers.

I just set it at M, picked a speed and aperture, and fired it with no
flash, built-in flash, and external flash. Each photograph was taken
at the same speed and aperture that I set.

Setting the aperture only had the same result...all the same.


--
Tony Cooper, Orlando FL

nick c 01-02-2013 01:40 AM

Re: Basic photo question
 
On 1/1/2013 1:10 PM, Steve B wrote:
> Let's say that I change my setting for either aperture, speed, or manual
> priority.
>
> I set the aperture for depth of focus, and the camera selects the speed.
> I set the speed to freeze motion, and the camera selects the aperture.
> I put it on manual, and can set both, even intentionally off if I want to.
>
> Now, the question. I turn on the flash.
>
> Does the camera use the settings I put in, or does it go into control of the
> camera, and change any of the settings? I have taken many photos of the
> same thing at many various settings, and I do know the photos come out
> differently. I was just wondering about this part of the camera's actual
> functioning.


There is an old Riehle axiom that goes like this "One Test Is Worth A
Thousand Expert Opinions."

You have done some testing yet have questions. That tells me although
you have viewed different results from your tests, you haven't done the
type tests that will adequately answer your questions.

With my equipment, although an attached flash (turned on) will fire at
any setting, the exposure setting on the camera remains the controlling
device. However, the flash will not override nor compensate for a bad
camera/pictorial manual setup. The flashes only function is to produce
light. How you use that that light (as coupled to the proper exposure
setting in the camera) is somewhat complex and what you may have yet to
learn.

A good start, in the absence of tests, would be to read what has been
published about the subject. Searching the Internet may prove be of some
assistance.

>
> I apologize for the basic question, but I want to learn this from the ABC's
> up, and I have a few missing letters.
>
> Steve
>
>
>



Martin Brown 01-02-2013 09:50 AM

Re: Basic photo question
 
On 02/01/2013 01:40, nick c wrote:
> On 1/1/2013 1:10 PM, Steve B wrote:
>> Let's say that I change my setting for either aperture, speed, or manual
>> priority.
>>
>> I set the aperture for depth of focus, and the camera selects the speed.
>> I set the speed to freeze motion, and the camera selects the aperture.
>> I put it on manual, and can set both, even intentionally off if I want
>> to.
>>
>> Now, the question. I turn on the flash.
>>
>> Does the camera use the settings I put in, or does it go into control
>> of the
>> camera, and change any of the settings? I have taken many photos of the
>> same thing at many various settings, and I do know the photos come out
>> differently. I was just wondering about this part of the camera's actual
>> functioning.

>
> There is an old Riehle axiom that goes like this "One Test Is Worth A
> Thousand Expert Opinions."
>
> You have done some testing yet have questions. That tells me although
> you have viewed different results from your tests, you haven't done the
> type tests that will adequately answer your questions.


There is no better way to find out than my doing the experiment
yourself. With digital no film is wasted either so it is easy to do.
>
> With my equipment, although an attached flash (turned on) will fire at
> any setting, the exposure setting on the camera remains the controlling
> device. However, the flash will not override nor compensate for a bad
> camera/pictorial manual setup. The flashes only function is to produce
> light. How you use that that light (as coupled to the proper exposure
> setting in the camera) is somewhat complex and what you may have yet to
> learn.


Some dedicated flashes are a fair bit more sophisticated than that.
A brief introduction to TTL metered flashguns on Pentax is at:

http://www.pentaxuser.co.uk/forum/to...ash-guide-4323

These smart flashes will correctly expose a scene on average using TTL
metering provided that their output is sufficient to do the job. They
can only provide light output upto their max guide number.

They also offer control over when the flash fires in relation to leading
or trailing curtain edge. Sharpest is when the shutter is open for the
shortest possible time consistent with obtaining flash sync.
>
> A good start, in the absence of tests, would be to read what has been
> published about the subject. Searching the Internet may prove be of some
> assistance.
>
>>
>> I apologize for the basic question, but I want to learn this from the
>> ABC's
>> up, and I have a few missing letters.
>>
>> Steve


The make and model of camera and flashgun is needed to give specific
advice.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

DanP 01-02-2013 11:22 AM

Re: Basic photo question
 
On Tue, 01 Jan 2013 14:10:24 -0700, Steve B wrote:

> Let's say that I change my setting for either aperture, speed, or manual
> priority.
>
> I set the aperture for depth of focus, and the camera selects the speed.
> I set the speed to freeze motion, and the camera selects the aperture.
> I put it on manual, and can set both, even intentionally off if I want
> to.
>
> Now, the question. I turn on the flash.
>
> Does the camera use the settings I put in, or does it go into control of
> the camera, and change any of the settings? I have taken many photos of
> the same thing at many various settings, and I do know the photos come
> out differently. I was just wondering about this part of the camera's
> actual functioning.
>
> I apologize for the basic question, but I want to learn this from the
> ABC's up, and I have a few missing letters.
>
> Steve


I could give you my opinion on this but I'll do something better.
Well, see it for yourself. Imagine a way to find it out and do it.

It takes less than a minute to grab your camera, take the shots and look
at the results.

If you add flash the light distribution in the scene will be different, ie
the background will have less light and foreground will be bright but
overall the exposure should be right. Check histogram.


DanP

Martin Brown 01-02-2013 02:23 PM

Re: Basic photo question
 
On 02/01/2013 11:22, DanP wrote:
> On Tue, 01 Jan 2013 14:10:24 -0700, Steve B wrote:
>
>> Let's say that I change my setting for either aperture, speed, or manual
>> priority.
>>
>> I set the aperture for depth of focus, and the camera selects the speed.
>> I set the speed to freeze motion, and the camera selects the aperture.
>> I put it on manual, and can set both, even intentionally off if I want
>> to.
>>
>> Now, the question. I turn on the flash.
>>
>> Does the camera use the settings I put in, or does it go into control of
>> the camera, and change any of the settings? I have taken many photos of
>> the same thing at many various settings, and I do know the photos come
>> out differently. I was just wondering about this part of the camera's
>> actual functioning.
>>
>> I apologize for the basic question, but I want to learn this from the
>> ABC's up, and I have a few missing letters.
>>
>> Steve

>
> I could give you my opinion on this but I'll do something better.
> Well, see it for yourself. Imagine a way to find it out and do it.
>
> It takes less than a minute to grab your camera, take the shots and look
> at the results.
>
> If you add flash the light distribution in the scene will be different, ie
> the background will have less light and foreground will be bright but
> overall the exposure should be right. Check histogram.



You need something fast moving and preferably with a known timebase in
the image to be able to distinguish the various advanced features.
Spinning wheel or in the old days a tube based TVs were good.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

Steve B 01-02-2013 04:53 PM

Re: Basic photo question
 

"DanP" <pope@vatican.org> wrote

<I agree with your proposition to take lots of test pics.>
>
> If you add flash the light distribution in the scene will be different, ie
> the background will have less light and foreground will be bright but
> overall the exposure should be right. Check histogram.
>
>
> DanP


I have decided on the SB-910, and yes, I probably will take a lot of test
pictures. I also want to investigate an umbrella, as I take hummer photos
on a davit that swings 8' out from the patio, so that I can get the sky
behind, and use sun angles. I take about 100 pictures of hummers for one
that I keep. Good thing it's not film.

Steve



Peter 01-02-2013 10:15 PM

Re: Basic photo question
 
On 1/1/2013 5:32 PM, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Tue, 01 Jan 2013 17:17:29 -0500, Robert Coe <bob@1776.COM> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 1 Jan 2013 14:10:24 -0700, "Steve B" <steveb@gmail.com> wrote:
>> : Let's say that I change my setting for either aperture, speed, or manual
>> : priority.
>> :
>> : I set the aperture for depth of focus, and the camera selects the speed.
>> : I set the speed to freeze motion, and the camera selects the aperture.
>> : I put it on manual, and can set both, even intentionally off if I want to.
>> :
>> : Now, the question. I turn on the flash.
>> :
>> : Does the camera use the settings I put in, or does it go into control of
>> : the camera, and change any of the settings? I have taken many photos of
>> : the same thing at many various settings, and I do know the photos come out
>> : differently. I was just wondering about this part of the camera's actual
>> : functioning.
>> :
>> : I apologize for the basic question, but I want to learn this from the ABC's
>> : up, and I have a few missing letters.
>>
>> That's a very complex question that has no short answer. It depends on the
>> camera, the flash unit, and the chosen settings for each. To obtain a reliable
>> answer, you'll have to read the manuals for both the camera and the flash
>> you're using, then come back with more specific questions about what you
>> didn't understand in the manuals.
>>
>> And don't imagine that it's a great simplification if you're using the
>> camera's built-in flash. Unless you're too knowledgeable to have asked such a
>> broad question, you can regard the built-in flash as simply a rather lame
>> external flash that happens to be located on the camera and pointed in the
>> same direction as the lens.

>
> He doesn't really have to read the manual to know. All he has to do
> is take a series of photos and then look at the EXIF data. If he knows
> what his settings were, he can compare that to the actual settings the
> camera used.
>
> On my Nikon, it's even simpler. Just look at the LCD on the back
> after each shot and read the numbers.
>
> I just set it at M, picked a speed and aperture, and fired it with no
> flash, built-in flash, and external flash. Each photograph was taken
> at the same speed and aperture that I set.


I only use manual for high speed synch, so I will only eliminate the
background. I think you meant to say that while varying the aperture
will give the same exposure, naturally the depth of field will vary.

>
> Setting the aperture only had the same result...all the same.
>
>



--
PeterN


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