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Alex 08-24-2012 10:33 PM

Is there a way to configure IDLE to use spaces instead of tabs for indenting?
 
I'm new to Python and have been using IDLE 3.2.3 to experiment with
code as I learn. Despite being configured to use a 4 space indentation
width, sometimes IDLE's "smart" indentation insists upon using width-8
tabs.

From what I've been able to find on Google, this is due to a
shortcoming in Tk. While it's not that big a deal in the grand scheme
of things, I think it looks like poop, and I'd like to change IDLE to
use 4-space indentation instead of tabs for all indentation levels.

Is there any way for me to achieve what I want in IDLE, or do I have to
start up my full-blown IDE if I want consistent 4-space indentation?

Alex

Terry Reedy 08-25-2012 11:29 AM

Re: Is there a way to configure IDLE to use spaces instead of tabsfor indenting?
 
On 8/24/2012 6:33 PM, Alex wrote:
> I'm new to Python and have been using IDLE 3.2.3 to experiment with
> code as I learn. Despite being configured to use a 4 space indentation


That applies to the editor and works in the editor for me and others. A
tab becomes 4 space characters, and a backspace in the appropriate place
deletes 4 space characters.

> width, sometimes IDLE's "smart" indentation insists upon using width-8
> tabs.


Only for the simulated interpreter. There is a tracker issue about
changing that but no consensus.


--
Terry Jan Reedy


Alex 08-25-2012 12:50 PM

Re: Is there a way to configure IDLE to use spaces instead of tabs for indenting?
 
Terry Reedy wrote:

> On 8/24/2012 6:33 PM, Alex wrote:
> > Despite being configured to use a 4 space
> > indentation

....
> > sometimes IDLE's "smart" indentation insists upon using
> > width-8 tabs.

>
> [The 4-space indentation setting] applies to the editor and works in
> the editor for me and others.
>
> [The width-8 tabs are inserted] Only for the simulated interpreter.
> There is a tracker issue about changing that but no consensus.


Yes, it works in the editor. I was referring to the simulated
interpreter. I guess I didn't make that clear.

In my search for a solution, I did see some of the traffic regarding
the tracker issue, but the posts were all several years old and I was
hoping maybe there was a fix by now. I guess not. Maybe in Python 4, eh?

Thanks.

Alex


Mark Lawrence 08-25-2012 01:20 PM

Re: Is there a way to configure IDLE to use spaces instead of tabsfor indenting?
 
On 25/08/2012 13:50, Alex wrote:
> Terry Reedy wrote:
>
>> On 8/24/2012 6:33 PM, Alex wrote:
>>> Despite being configured to use a 4 space
>>> indentation

> ...
>>> sometimes IDLE's "smart" indentation insists upon using
>>> width-8 tabs.

>>
>> [The 4-space indentation setting] applies to the editor and works in
>> the editor for me and others.
>>
>> [The width-8 tabs are inserted] Only for the simulated interpreter.
>> There is a tracker issue about changing that but no consensus.

>
> Yes, it works in the editor. I was referring to the simulated
> interpreter. I guess I didn't make that clear.
>
> In my search for a solution, I did see some of the traffic regarding
> the tracker issue, but the posts were all several years old and I was
> hoping maybe there was a fix by now. I guess not. Maybe in Python 4, eh?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Alex
>


For the record issue 7676, yes?

--
Cheers.

Mark Lawrence.


Alex 08-25-2012 02:17 PM

Re: Is there a way to configure IDLE to use spaces instead of tabs for indenting?
 
Mark Lawrence wrote:

> On 25/08/2012 13:50, Alex wrote:
> > Terry Reedy wrote:
> >
> > > On 8/24/2012 6:33 PM, Alex wrote:
> > > > Despite being configured to use a 4 space
> > > > indentation

> > ...
> > > > sometimes IDLE's "smart" indentation insists upon using
> > > > width-8 tabs.
> > >
> > > [The 4-space indentation setting] applies to the editor and works
> > > in the editor for me and others.
> > >
> > > [The width-8 tabs are inserted] Only for the simulated
> > > interpreter. There is a tracker issue about changing that but no
> > > consensus.

> >
> > Yes, it works in the editor. I was referring to the simulated
> > interpreter. I guess I didn't make that clear.
> >
> > In my search for a solution, I did see some of the traffic regarding
> > the tracker issue, but the posts were all several years old and I
> > was hoping maybe there was a fix by now. I guess not. Maybe in
> > Python 4, eh?
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > Alex
> >

>
> For the record issue 7676, yes?


Yes, that appears to be the issue I was talking about and is, in fact,
one of the threads I had looked at before posting here. Of course, I
didn't pay enough attention to the dates. I see the most recent posting
on the issue appears to have been made in January of this year, so I
should have realized it's an ongoing issue.

Terry Reedy 08-25-2012 06:36 PM

Re: Is there a way to configure IDLE to use spaces instead of tabsfor indenting?
 
On 8/25/2012 10:17 AM, Alex wrote:

> Yes, that appears to be the issue I was talking about and is, in fact,
> one of the threads I had looked at before posting here. Of course, I
> didn't pay enough attention to the dates. I see the most recent posting
> on the issue appears to have been made in January of this year, so I
> should have realized it's an ongoing issue.


There have also been a few posts this year on the idle-sig mail list.

There are only a few people working on IDLE and we have concentrated
this calendar year on fixing crashers, not semi-aesthetic issues.

--
Terry Jan Reedy


Ramchandra Apte 09-05-2012 01:04 PM

Re: Is there a way to configure IDLE to use spaces instead of tabsfor indenting?
 
On Saturday, 25 August 2012 04:03:52 UTC+5:30, Alex wrote:
> I'm new to Python and have been using IDLE 3.2.3 to experiment with
>
> code as I learn. Despite being configured to use a 4 space indentation
>
> width, sometimes IDLE's "smart" indentation insists upon using width-8
>
> tabs.
>
>
>
> From what I've been able to find on Google, this is due to a
>
> shortcoming in Tk. While it's not that big a deal in the grand scheme
>
> of things, I think it looks like poop, and I'd like to change IDLE to
>
> use 4-space indentation instead of tabs for all indentation levels.
>
>
>
> Is there any way for me to achieve what I want in IDLE, or do I have to
>
> start up my full-blown IDE if I want consistent 4-space indentation?
>
>
>
> Alex


I think an IDE is better than IDLE. Try NINJA IDE. http://ninja-ide.org

Alex 09-06-2012 01:43 PM

Re: Is there a way to configure IDLE to use spaces instead of tabs for indenting?
 
Ramchandra Apte wrote:

> On Saturday, 25 August 2012 04:03:52 UTC+5:30, Alex wrote:
> > I'm new to Python and have been using IDLE 3.2.3 to experiment with
> >
> > code as I learn. Despite being configured to use a 4 space
> > indentation
> >
> > width, sometimes IDLE's "smart" indentation insists upon using
> > width-8
> >
> > tabs.
> >
> >
> >
> > From what I've been able to find on Google, this is due to a
> >
> > shortcoming in Tk. While it's not that big a deal in the grand
> > scheme
> >
> > of things, I think it looks like poop, and I'd like to change IDLE
> > to
> >
> > use 4-space indentation instead of tabs for all indentation levels.
> >
> >
> >
> > Is there any way for me to achieve what I want in IDLE, or do I
> > have to
> >
> > start up my full-blown IDE if I want consistent 4-space indentation?
> >
> >
> >
> > Alex

>
> I think an IDE is better than IDLE. Try NINJA IDE.
> http://ninja-ide.org


Agreed. I like PyDev in Eclipse, but sometimes I just want to try out
something quick in the interpreter, to ensure I understand it or do a
quick experiment. Since indentation is syntactically significant in
Python, I think fixing the interpreter to produce good, readable,
cut-and-pasteable, and Pythonic code is more important than a cosmetic
feature, but less important than true bugs.

Ramchandra Apte 09-06-2012 01:54 PM

Re: Is there a way to configure IDLE to use spaces instead of tabsfor indenting?
 
On Thursday, 6 September 2012 19:13:23 UTC+5:30, Alex wrote:
> Ramchandra Apte wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Saturday, 25 August 2012 04:03:52 UTC+5:30, Alex wrote:

>
> > > I'm new to Python and have been using IDLE 3.2.3 to experiment with

>
> > >

>
> > > code as I learn. Despite being configured to use a 4 space

>
> > > indentation

>
> > >

>
> > > width, sometimes IDLE's "smart" indentation insists upon using

>
> > > width-8

>
> > >

>
> > > tabs.

>
> > >

>
> > >

>
> > >

>
> > > From what I've been able to find on Google, this is due to a

>
> > >

>
> > > shortcoming in Tk. While it's not that big a deal in the grand

>
> > > scheme

>
> > >

>
> > > of things, I think it looks like poop, and I'd like to change IDLE

>
> > > to

>
> > >

>
> > > use 4-space indentation instead of tabs for all indentation levels.

>
> > >

>
> > >

>
> > >

>
> > > Is there any way for me to achieve what I want in IDLE, or do I

>
> > > have to

>
> > >

>
> > > start up my full-blown IDE if I want consistent 4-space indentation?

>
> > >

>
> > >

>
> > >

>
> > > Alex

>
> >

>
> > I think an IDE is better than IDLE. Try NINJA IDE.

>
> > http://ninja-ide.org

>
>
>
> Agreed. I like PyDev in Eclipse, but sometimes I just want to try out
>
> something quick in the interpreter, to ensure I understand it or do a
>
> quick experiment. Since indentation is syntactically significant in
>
> Python, I think fixing the interpreter to produce good, readable,
>
> cut-and-pasteable, and Pythonic code is more important than a cosmetic
>
> feature, but less important than true bugs.


Agree.

Terry Reedy 09-06-2012 06:11 PM

Re: Is there a way to configure IDLE to use spaces instead of tabsfor indenting?
 
On 9/6/2012 9:43 AM, Alex wrote:

>> On Saturday, 25 August 2012 04:03:52 UTC+5:30, Alex wrote:
>>> I'm new to Python and have been using IDLE 3.2.3 to experiment with
>>> code as I learn. Despite being configured to use a 4 space
>>> indentation width, sometimes IDLE's "smart" indentation insists
>>> upon using width-8 tabs.


[snip]

> Agreed. I like PyDev in Eclipse, but sometimes I just want to try out
> something quick in the interpreter, to ensure I understand it or do a
> quick experiment.


You have two choices that come with the distribution: the console and
IDLE. I prefer IDLE. IPython and other shells and IDEs are other choices.

> Since indentation is syntactically significant in
> Python, I think fixing the interpreter to produce good, readable,
> cut-and-pasteable, and Pythonic code is more important than a cosmetic
> feature, but less important than true bugs.


IDLE is not the interpreter. As I said before, the IDLE editor *already*
does what you want. The IDLE Shell is intended mainly for single-line
inputs. For compound statements, it does automatic indenting, unlike the
console (at least not on Windows). It uses a tab to guarantee that the
code is visually indented. It does not use secondary prompts because a)
they would not line up anyway with proportional fonts and b) they would
appear in cut and paste copies. This probably count be improved, and has
been discussed, but someone has to volunteer to write a patch that shows
that it can be improved without introducing negative consequences. I
would test one if one appears.

For more than a three-line compound statement, I use the editor with a
scratchpad file where editing is *much* easier. If the compound
statement is a class or function definition, you need more statements
anyway to actually exercise the definition. Hitting F5 to run is as easy
as putting the cursor at the end of the statement and hitting Enter. And
it runs multiple statements at once, not just one.

--
Terry Jan Reedy



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