Li-ion storage advice?
 

One of the things I've always loved about Lithium Ion batteries
(compared to NiMH) is their very low self discharge rate. Put it in a
drawer for 6 months and sill have a usable charge it it.

Also the total lack of memory effect. You can charge/discharge them
without regard to "harming" the cells in some way, other than normal wear.

I've read different advice on how to store Li-ion batteries, from
freezing to always storing filly charged. Doing a Google search these
days seems to yield the general advice to discharge them to 40% for long
term storage.

And under no circumstances should they be allowed to fully discharge as
a special protection circuit needs a bit of remaining juice or it may
malfunction and prevent the cell from ever being charged again.

So it was with great amazement I read this in the Canon manual for my
new S100 camera.

"How to store the battery for long periods: Deplete and remove the
battery from the camera. Attach the terminal cover and store the
battery. Storing a battery for long periods of time (about a year)
without depleting it may shorten its life span or affect its performance."

So what's the general advice these days? Do you agree with Canon's
advice to store Li-ion batteries completely discharged?

Bruce.

Re: Li-ion storage advice?
 

In article <jlg30i$po8$1@news.albasani.net>, Bruce. <noone@example.com>
wrote:

> One of the things I've always loved about Lithium Ion batteries
> (compared to NiMH) is their very low self discharge rate. Put it in a
> drawer for 6 months and sill have a usable charge it it.
>
> Also the total lack of memory effect. You can charge/discharge them
> without regard to "harming" the cells in some way, other than normal wear.
>
> I've read different advice on how to store Li-ion batteries, from
> freezing to always storing filly charged. Doing a Google search these
> days seems to yield the general advice to discharge them to 40% for long
> term storage.

you want it somewhere in the middle. 40% is close enough. fully charged
or fully discharged is bad for storage.

> And under no circumstances should they be allowed to fully discharge as
> a special protection circuit needs a bit of remaining juice or it may
> malfunction and prevent the cell from ever being charged again.

you can't fully discharge a lion battery. the protection circuit will
kick in and prevent it. however, discharging it at low as it goes is
still bad for long term storage.

> So it was with great amazement I read this in the Canon manual for my
> new S100 camera.
>
> "How to store the battery for long periods: Deplete and remove the
> battery from the camera. Attach the terminal cover and store the
> battery. Storing a battery for long periods of time (about a year)
> without depleting it may shorten its life span or affect its performance."

is it a lion battery or something else?

> So what's the general advice these days? Do you agree with Canon's
> advice to store Li-ion batteries completely discharged?

if it's lion, definitely not. discharge them to 50% and put into
storage.

Re: Li-ion storage advice?
 

Bruce. wrote:
> One of the things I've always loved about Lithium Ion batteries
> (compared to NiMH) is their very low self discharge rate. Put it in a
> drawer for 6 months and sill have a usable charge it it.
>
> Also the total lack of memory effect. You can charge/discharge them
> without regard to "harming" the cells in some way, other than normal wear.
>
> I've read different advice on how to store Li-ion batteries, from
> freezing to always storing filly charged. Doing a Google search these
> days seems to yield the general advice to discharge them to 40% for long
> term storage.
>
> And under no circumstances should they be allowed to fully discharge as
> a special protection circuit needs a bit of remaining juice or it may
> malfunction and prevent the cell from ever being charged again.
>
> So it was with great amazement I read this in the Canon manual for my
> new S100 camera.
>
> "How to store the battery for long periods: Deplete and remove the
> battery from the camera. Attach the terminal cover and store the
> battery. Storing a battery for long periods of time (about a year)
> without depleting it may shorten its life span or affect its performance."
>
> So what's the general advice these days? Do you agree with Canon's
> advice to store Li-ion batteries completely discharged?
>
> Bruce.

I too have a Canon S-100, which I like very much. Have you ever thought
of posing your question to Canon's Tech Support people? In addition to a
reply that might possibly be helpful, you can print out their e-mail
response and keep it with your owner's manual, in case a problem with
the battery arises. A piece of paper might be more useful than a
telephone conversation.

Regards,

Mort Linder

Re: Li-ion storage advice?
 

On Apr 4, 6:28*am, Mxsmanic <mxsma...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Bruce. writes:
> > So what's the general advice these days? *Do you agree with Canon's
> > advice to store Li-ion batteries completely discharged?
>
> No. The advice I've seen is that they should be about half charged.

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/a...tore_batteries

"While lead acid must always be kept at full charge during storage,
nickel- and lithium-based chemistries should be stored at around a 40
percent state-of-charge (SoC). This level minimizes age-related
capacity loss while keeping the battery in operating condition and
allowing self-discharge."


>
> I keep them fully charged, so that they are ready to use,

A valid point, in that is it better to have the bateries ready for
real use or to extend their life ?
for the average user it might be best to keep them charged as much as
possible but if seliing them
then I guess it's better at 40%.

There's also a range of li-ion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium...ry#Chemistries

be interesting to know which ones are used buy which manufactures/
companies
Which might also explain co0me price differnies between them.

> and rotate through
> them so that they all get cycled periodically. I usually charge a batteryas
> soon as I'm done shooting for the day, and I rarely run batteries all theway
> down (mainly because I use higher-capacity batteries when I can).

Re: Li-ion storage advice?
 

On 4/3/2012 7:07 PM, nospam wrote:
> is it a lion battery or something else?

Yes, Canon NB-5L Li-Ion Batteries.

Bruce.

Re: Li-ion storage advice?
 

On 4/3/2012 7:20 PM, Mort wrote:
> I too have a Canon S-100, which I like very much. Have you ever thought
> of posing your question to Canon's Tech Support people? In addition to a
> reply that might possibly be helpful, you can print out their e-mail
> response and keep it with your owner's manual, in case a problem with
> the battery arises. A piece of paper might be more useful than a
> telephone conversation.

Good idea! I didn't know they had email support which I just found. I
have sent them the same question and will post the reply. I don't
expect them to contradict their camera manual but the reply might be
enlightening in some way.

Bruce.

Re: Li-ion storage advice?
 

On 4/3/2012 7:07 PM, nospam wrote:
> you can't fully discharge a lion battery. the protection circuit will
> kick in and prevent it. however, discharging it at low as it goes is
> still bad for long term storage.

From what I read, which may be dated and no longer accurate, that while
the circuit prevents a short term full discharge, if the battery is
fully discharged and then allowed to sit in that state for a long time,
the unavoidable self-discharge rate will continue to deplete the battery
below what is needed for the circuit to work, although that may take
many months longer, making it impossible for most battery chargers to
recharge it.

They also mentioned that there are special chargers available that can
recharge such "dead" batteries despite the non-functional protection circuit

Bruce.

Re: Li-ion storage advice?
 

On 4/4/2012 9:13 AM, Bruce. wrote:
> Good idea! I didn't know they had email support which I just found. I
> have sent them the same question and will post the reply. I don't expect
> them to contradict their camera manual but the reply might be
> enlightening in some way.

Well, not too surprisingly, the basically restated what the manual says.
They do get high marks for a very fast reply though! Here is the reply:

"To store the battery pack it is recommended that you deplete the power
and remove the battery from the camera. Attach the terminal cover (or
place the battery pack in a zip lock style bag) and store the battery.
Storing it for a long period of time without depleting it may shorten
its life span or affect its performance. If you do not use the battery
for long periods of time, charge it fully and discharge it fully in the
camera about once a year before returning it to storage."

To the advice in the manual, they added the requirement that the battery
in storage be fully charged and then fully discharged about once a year.

So Canon seems to disagree with the general Li-ion advice I've read
elsewhere.

Bruce.

Re: Li-ion storage advice?
 

"Bruce." <noone@example.com> writes:

> So it was with great amazement I read this in the Canon manual for my
> new S100 camera.
>
> "How to store the battery for long periods: Deplete and remove the
> battery from the camera. Attach the terminal cover and store the
> battery. Storing a battery for long periods of time (about a year)
> without depleting it may shorten its life span or affect its
> performance."
>
> So what's the general advice these days? Do you agree with Canon's
> advice to store Li-ion batteries completely discharged?

It may not be the same for all Li-ion batteries, either. Either the
underlying battery tech, or the layer of management circuitry on top,
may be different, causing different recommended storage procedures.

I'd need pretty strong reasons to ignore specific instructions for my
exact battery.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b@dd-b.net; http://dd-b.net/
Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/
Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/
Dragaera: http://dragaera.info

Re: Li-ion storage advice?
 

On Wed, 04 Apr 2012 09:33:40 -0500, "Bruce." <noone@example.com>
wrote:

>On 4/4/2012 9:13 AM, Bruce. wrote:
>> Good idea! I didn't know they had email support which I just found. I
>> have sent them the same question and will post the reply. I don't expect
>> them to contradict their camera manual but the reply might be
>> enlightening in some way.
>
>Well, not too surprisingly, the basically restated what the manual says.
> They do get high marks for a very fast reply though! Here is the reply:
>
>"To store the battery pack it is recommended that you deplete the power
>and remove the battery from the camera. Attach the terminal cover (or
>place the battery pack in a zip lock style bag) and store the battery.
>Storing it for a long period of time without depleting it may shorten
>its life span or affect its performance. If you do not use the battery
>for long periods of time, charge it fully and discharge it fully in the
>camera about once a year before returning it to storage."
>
>To the advice in the manual, they added the requirement that the battery
>in storage be fully charged and then fully discharged about once a year.
>
>So Canon seems to disagree with the general Li-ion advice I've read
>elsewhere.
>
>Bruce.


I wonder if they (Canon) are thinking that the camera will only
discharge the battery to a certain point, not fully discharge it as
would a flashlight.