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Greg Hauptmann 06-15-2008 10:35 AM

why can't an instance instantiated within a class method access aprotected instance method?
 
[Note: parts of this message were removed to make it a legal post.]

Hi,
Why can't an instance instantiated within a class method access a protected
instance method?

e.g.

class Recurring < ActiveRecord::Base
def self.reconcile t = Transaction.find(:first)


Greg Hauptmann 06-15-2008 10:37 AM

Re: why can't an instance instantiated within a class method accessa protected instance method?
 
[Note: parts of this message were removed to make it a legal post.]

(complete email)Hi,

Why can't an instance instantiated within a class method access a protected
instance method?

e.g.

class Recurring < ActiveRecord::Base

def self.reconcile rs = Recurring.find(:all)
rs.each do |r|
r.reconcile_one
end
end

protected

def reconcile_one
# do something
end

end


Florian Gilcher 06-15-2008 12:24 PM

Re: why can't an instance instantiated within a class method accessa protected instance method?
 
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On Jun 15, 2008, at 12:37 PM, Greg Hauptmann wrote:

> (complete email)Hi,
>
> Why can't an instance instantiated within a class method access a
> protected
> instance method?
>
> e.g.
>
> class Recurring < ActiveRecord::Base
>
> def self.reconcile rs = Recurring.find(:all)
> rs.each do |r|
> r.reconcile_one
> end
> end
>
> protected
>
> def reconcile_one
> # do something
> end
>
> end


Because calling a Method with an explicit receiver is like "calling
from the outside".

Regards,
Florian Gilcher
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David A. Black 06-15-2008 01:03 PM

Re: why can't an instance instantiated within a class method accessa protected instance method?
 
Hi --

On Sun, 15 Jun 2008, Florian Gilcher wrote:

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
>
> On Jun 15, 2008, at 12:37 PM, Greg Hauptmann wrote:
>
>> (complete email)Hi,
>>
>> Why can't an instance instantiated within a class method access a protected
>> instance method?
>>
>> e.g.
>>
>> class Recurring < ActiveRecord::Base
>>
>> def self.reconcile rs = Recurring.find(:all)
>> rs.each do |r|
>> r.reconcile_one
>> end
>> end
>>
>> protected
>>
>> def reconcile_one
>> # do something
>> end
>>
>> end

>
> Because calling a Method with an explicit receiver is like "calling from the
> outside".


It's not quite that. Protected methods can be called with an explicit
receiver, but they can only be called on objects that are of the same
class as self (or a subclass thereof). In self.reconcile, self is
Recurring, and therefore of class Class, while rs is of class
Recurring.


David

--
Rails training from David A. Black and Ruby Power and Light:
ADVANCING WITH RAILS June 16-19 Berlin
ADVANCING WITH RAILS July 21-24 Edison, NJ
See http://www.rubypal.com for details and updates!


Greg Hauptmann 06-15-2008 01:17 PM

Re: why can't an instance instantiated within a class method accessa protected instance method?
 
[Note: parts of this message were removed to make it a legal post.]

On Sun, Jun 15, 2008 at 11:03 PM, David A. Black <dblack@rubypal.com> wrote:

> Hi --
> On Sun, 15 Jun 2008, Florian Gilcher wrote:
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>>
>> On Jun 15, 2008, at 12:37 PM, Greg Hauptmann wrote:
>>
>> (complete email)Hi,
>>>
>>> Why can't an instance instantiated within a class method access a
>>> protected
>>> instance method?
>>>
>>> e.g.
>>>
>>> class Recurring < ActiveRecord::Base
>>>
>>> def self.reconcile rs = Recurring.find(:all)
>>> rs.each do |r|
>>> r.reconcile_one
>>> end
>>> end
>>>
>>> protected
>>>
>>> def reconcile_one
>>> # do something
>>> end
>>>
>>> end
>>>

>>
>> Because calling a Method with an explicit receiver is like "calling from
>> the outside".
>>

>
> It's not quite that. Protected methods can be called with an explicit
> receiver, but they can only be called on objects that are of the same
> class as self (or a subclass thereof). In self.reconcile, self is
> Recurring, and therefore of class Class, while rs is of class
> Recurring.
>
>
> David



Thanks - can I ask:
(a) what do you mean by "explicit" - just to understand
(b) is there a way I can adjust my code so that I can leave methods like
"reconcile_one" private or protected, i.e. not really to be available to the
outside world (except in this case where I'm calling it from with an
instance of the class really, but it's just the logistics of Ruby that isn't
allowing it to work...if I've understood things correctly)

Greg


Robert Klemme 06-15-2008 01:25 PM

Re: why can't an instance instantiated within a class method accessa protected instance method?
 
On 15.06.2008 15:17, Greg Hauptmann wrote:
> Thanks - can I ask:


Guess so.

> (a) what do you mean by "explicit" - just to understand


no_explicit_receiver()
self.has_explicit_receiver()

> (b) is there a way I can adjust my code so that I can leave methods like
> "reconcile_one" private or protected, i.e. not really to be available to the
> outside world (except in this case where I'm calling it from with an
> instance of the class really, but it's just the logistics of Ruby that isn't
> allowing it to work...if I've understood things correctly)


You can use #send or #instance_eval, e.g.

irb(main):001:0> class F
irb(main):002:1> protected
irb(main):003:1> def x;1 end
irb(main):004:1> end
=> nil
irb(main):005:0> f=F.new
=> #<F:0x7ff94460>
irb(main):006:0> f.x
NoMethodError: protected method `x' called for #<F:0x7ff94460>
from (irb):6
from :0
irb(main):007:0> f.instance_eval { x }
=> 1
irb(main):008:0> f.send :x
=> 1
irb(main):009:0>

Cheers

robert

Greg Hauptmann 06-15-2008 01:55 PM

Re: why can't an instance instantiated within a class method accessa protected instance method?
 
[Note: parts of this message were removed to make it a legal post.]

On Sun, Jun 15, 2008 at 11:29 PM, Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com>
wrote:

> On 15.06.2008 15:17, Greg Hauptmann wrote:
>
>> Thanks - can I ask:
>>

>
> Guess so.
>
> (a) what do you mean by "explicit" - just to understand
>>

>
> no_explicit_receiver()
> self.has_explicit_receiver()
>
> (b) is there a way I can adjust my code so that I can leave methods like
>> "reconcile_one" private or protected, i.e. not really to be available to
>> the
>> outside world (except in this case where I'm calling it from with an
>> instance of the class really, but it's just the logistics of Ruby that
>> isn't
>> allowing it to work...if I've understood things correctly)
>>

>
> You can use #send or #instance_eval, e.g.
>
> irb(main):001:0> class F
> irb(main):002:1> protected
> irb(main):003:1> def x;1 end
> irb(main):004:1> end
> => nil
> irb(main):005:0> f=F.new
> => #<F:0x7ff94460>
> irb(main):006:0> f.x
> NoMethodError: protected method `x' called for #<F:0x7ff94460>
> from (irb):6
> from :0
> irb(main):007:0> f.instance_eval { x }
> => 1
> irb(main):008:0> f.send :x
> => 1
> irb(main):009:0>
>
> Cheers
>
> robert
>


Thanks Robert - do you understand why Ruby allows the "send :x" method to
work here, but not the ".x" out of curiosity? Does this make sense to
people it should do this?
Greg


David A. Black 06-15-2008 02:38 PM

Re: why can't an instance instantiated within a class method accessa protected instance method?
 
Hi --

On Sun, 15 Jun 2008, Greg Hauptmann wrote:

> On Sun, Jun 15, 2008 at 11:29 PM, Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 15.06.2008 15:17, Greg Hauptmann wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks - can I ask:
>>>

>>
>> Guess so.
>>
>> (a) what do you mean by "explicit" - just to understand
>>>

>>
>> no_explicit_receiver()
>> self.has_explicit_receiver()
>>
>> (b) is there a way I can adjust my code so that I can leave methods like
>>> "reconcile_one" private or protected, i.e. not really to be available to
>>> the
>>> outside world (except in this case where I'm calling it from with an
>>> instance of the class really, but it's just the logistics of Ruby that
>>> isn't
>>> allowing it to work...if I've understood things correctly)
>>>

>>
>> You can use #send or #instance_eval, e.g.
>>
>> irb(main):001:0> class F
>> irb(main):002:1> protected
>> irb(main):003:1> def x;1 end
>> irb(main):004:1> end
>> => nil
>> irb(main):005:0> f=F.new
>> => #<F:0x7ff94460>
>> irb(main):006:0> f.x
>> NoMethodError: protected method `x' called for #<F:0x7ff94460>
>> from (irb):6
>> from :0
>> irb(main):007:0> f.instance_eval { x }
>> => 1
>> irb(main):008:0> f.send :x
>> => 1
>> irb(main):009:0>
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> robert
>>

>
> Thanks Robert - do you understand why Ruby allows the "send :x" method to
> work here, but not the ".x" out of curiosity? Does this make sense to
> people it should do this?


Private and protected are really only advisory, since you can in fact
always get around them. The idea is to have the most common
method-calling technique (the dot) respect them, so that if you want
to get around them, you have to make a point of using one of the other
techniques.


David

--
Rails training from David A. Black and Ruby Power and Light:
ADVANCING WITH RAILS June 16-19 Berlin
ADVANCING WITH RAILS July 21-24 Edison, NJ
See http://www.rubypal.com for details and updates!


J. Cooper 06-15-2008 04:31 PM

Re: why can't an instance instantiated within a class method
 

>> Thanks Robert - do you understand why Ruby allows the "send :x" method to
>> work here, but not the ".x" out of curiosity? Does this make sense to
>> people it should do this?


The whole point of the private/protected method deal is to prevent what
you are trying to do :) Ruby, having lots of metaprogramming
capabilities, lets you get around this "if you really know what you are
doing" -- as you can see, it's a bit more of a pain then just the
standard way of calling a method. It's to help keep you honest.

--
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.


Loren Segal 06-16-2008 10:16 AM

Re: why can't an instance instantiated within a class method accessa protected instance method?
 
> Does this make sense to people it should do this?

Should people use send() to get around protected method visibility? No.

Do they? Yes.

Is it justified? Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't.

Having to send() to get around a visibility issue usually implies that
there's some API design problem in the code you're using. The reason its
usage is sometimes justified is simply because you don't own everybody
else's code and you can't be held liable for their mistakes. There's
also the case where you simply have no other choice.

I think in this scenario you really need to ask yourself why the method
is protected to begin with. I see nothing in your code that would have
me believe that your `self.reconcile` method *must* come from the
metaclass of the object. In fact, it looks like a factory method that
could ideally be called from anywhere. That to me constitutes public
method, especially since what's really happening is: "grab a bunch of
objects and call `reconcile_once` on them"... I see no reason why some
fictional `MyOtherClass` wouldn't be able to do the same thing with your
objects.

Loren
--
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.



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