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-   -   Can you please help to make decision? (http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/t844530-can-you-please-help-to-make-decision.html)

Byung-Hee HWANG 09-30-2007 09:12 AM

Can you please help to make decision?
 
Fist of all, sorry for poor English, I am not professional English
speaker. I have some plan to do study computer language for my work. But
still I do not make decision what to do study between Ruby and Python. I
never have experience to use any computer language. I think Ruby's
design is clean, whereas it does not have many libraries to use
somebody.

Can you please help to make decision?



SpringFlowers AutumnMoon 09-30-2007 09:28 AM

Re: Can you please help to make decision?
 
Byung-Hee HWANG wrote:
> Fist of all, sorry for poor English, I am not professional English
> speaker. I have some plan to do study computer language for my work. But
> still I do not make decision what to do study between Ruby and Python. I
> never have experience to use any computer language. I think Ruby's
> design is clean, whereas it does not have many libraries to use
> somebody.


Ruby, no question about it.

--
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.


Robert Dober 09-30-2007 10:19 AM

Re: Can you please help to make decision?
 
On 9/30/07, SpringFlowers AutumnMoon <summercoolness@gmail.com> wrote:
> Byung-Hee HWANG wrote:
> > Fist of all, sorry for poor English, I am not professional English
> > speaker. I have some plan to do study computer language for my work. But
> > still I do not make decision what to do study between Ruby and Python. I
> > never have experience to use any computer language. I think Ruby's
> > design is clean, whereas it does not have many libraries to use
> > somebody.

>
> Ruby, no question about it.

Of course 100% Ruby unless you ask the question on the Python Mailing List ;).
I however feel that if one might argue if Ruby or Python is the better
language for ages if it comes to decide which one of the both to
learn first Ruby really wins, here is my personal list why:

- a clean (probably one of the cleanest) object oriented design, example
12.to_s (Ry) vs. str(12) (Py)
- a simpler (not simple by any means, but simpler) Inheritance Model
- a little bit less esotheric (syntax and metraprogramming) thus what
you learn about Ruby will be more usable for other languages e.g.
Smalltalk
- simpler, Python got very, very powerful but at the cost of advanced
techniques, the Ruby learning curve will be much flatter.
- and this is my favorite: "Code Blocks", learning to use code blocks
is probably the single greatest benefit from learning Ruby, Python
just will not give this to you.

This is a single opinion of a single minded guy of course ;).
Robert
--
what do I think about Ruby?
http://ruby-smalltalk.blogspot.com/


7stud -- 09-30-2007 01:47 PM

Re: Can you please help to make decision?
 
I would choose python.

1)
>a clean (probably one of the cleanest) object oriented design, example:

<snip>

Convert the number 12 to a string:

ruby: my_str = 12.to_s

python: my_str = str(12)

I have a hard time understanding how either method has an advantage over
the other. It's totally irrelevant in my opinion. Personally, I think
using a number to call a method looks ugly. But I can adapt pretty
easily.

2)
- a simpler (not simple by any means, but simpler) Inheritance Model

I have never studied a simple inheritance model. I don't have enough
experience with Ruby's inheritance model yet to know which is simpler.
Once again, I think trying to decide which is simpler is totally
irrelevant--especially for a beginner who has never programmed in any
language before.

3)
- a little bit less esotheric (syntax and metraprogramming) thus what
you learn about Ruby will be more usable for other languages e.g.
Smalltalk

I think ruby's syntax looks like chicken scratchings, and I have a C++
background. C++ has the most difficult syntax I have seen--except maybe
perl's. In my opinion, python's syntax is much more human readable than
ruby's. I guess if you are coming from perl, then ruby's syntax would
seem incredibly clear. Of course, if you know a language well, it's
easy to read. I think the test is whether someone who doesn't know a
language well can make heads or tails out of what is going on in some
basic code. I don't think ruby is ever going to be readable in that way.

Ruby also relies heavily on regex's, and regex's are never going to be
easy to read for anyone. regex's are not beginner friendly, and that
might be a big barrier for a beginner trying to learn ruby. There are
lots of people who just can't learn regex's.


4)
- simpler, Python got very, very powerful but at the cost of advanced
techniques, the Ruby learning curve will be much flatter.

I doubt that Ruby's learning curve is flatter. I think python and ruby
are close neighbors as far as languages go. In fact, there are some
similarities that it will make you wonder who copied who with regard to
certain features. However, I would guess that python's learning curve
is easier for beginners because the subject of classes doesn't come up
until about the middle of a python book. python is a language that can
be used effectively without classes if the concept of classes is too
difficult for a beginner to grasp.

Overall, I think python's online documentation is pretty poor, but I
think ruby's is worse. In my opinion, only php got it right. They
opened up the online documentation to user comments, and now every
single issue that has ever been encountered with any function is
discussed in the comments to the documentation. That is incredibly
valuable information. If ruby wanted to take a significant step forward
in its online documentation relative to python, I think they should copy
the php model. One solution to the poor online docs for both ruby and
python is to buy a good book.

There is also more information about python available on the web since
the python community is much larger.

5)
- and this is my favorite: "Code Blocks", learning to use code blocks
is probably the single greatest benefit from learning Ruby, Python
just will not give this to you.

I don't know what "code blocks" are and the subject isn't in the
appendix of ruby's bible: pickaxe2, so I can't comment on that.

6) I find tracking down errors is more difficult in ruby than python.
python has better error messages. For instance, in ruby if you forget
one 'end' in your code somewhere('end' is used to terminate a section of
code), the error message will say that there is an error on the last
line of your program. As a result, you have to go hunting through your
whole program to figure out where you forgot an 'end'. That's
aggravating.

7) There are some really nice little touches that python implements,
which make programming less aggravating. I'll highlight one.

Both ruby and python have string formatting, which requires more typing
as well as typing harder to reach characters on the keyboard in order to
output some information to the screen. But let's say you just want to
quickly display something to the screen with minimal typing. In ruby,
you can use the method: puts. For instance,

val1 = 10
val2 = 20

puts val1, val2

puts adds a newline after each value, so the output is:

10
20

But, what if you want to print two things on the same line. Ruby also
has a print method:

print val1, val2

but the output will be: 1020. To get some separation, you have to do
this:

print val1, " ", val2

and then the output will be: 10 20. Having to include the quoted space
in there is almost not worth the effort--you might be swayed to use the
more laborious string formatting instead. In addition, print does not
add a newline at the end, so to keep any subsequent output from
displaying on the same line, you need to write:

print val1, " ", val2, "\n"

That's just too much of a hassle. Using puts with string formatting is
probably no harder to type:

puts "#{val1} #{val2}"

So much for being able to type something quickly that displays a few
values to the screen.

In python, the print command is like the puts method in ruby. However,
it works a little bit differently. The statement:

print val1, val2

works differently in two ways:

1) print adds a newline after all the output--not after each variable
2) print automatically adds a space between each variable

So this code:

val1 = 10
val2 = 20

print val1, val2

produces the output: 10 20, and since print automatically adds a newline
after all the output, the next print statement won't display output on
the same line. As a result, python's print statement is incredibly
handy and easy to use. I think it shows how much thought is put into
the details of the language.

8) Then there are the well documented major shortcomings of Ruby---it is
slow. Rubyists will say, "Who cares?! I'm in no rush to get the
results of my programs." That's well and good, but it's nice to have
more speed if you need it. Rubyists will counter, "If I need the speed,
I'll program in C." That's great if you know C, but what if you only
know ruby? python executes much faster than ruby, and just like ruby,
you can program the slow parts in C if you need even more speed.

Good luck with your choice.

--
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.


Byung-Hee HWANG 09-30-2007 02:03 PM

Re: Can you please help to make decision?
 
On Sun, 2007-09-30 at 22:47 +0900, 7stud -- wrote:
[...snip...]
> I think ruby's syntax looks like chicken scratchings, and I have a C++
> background. C++ has the most difficult syntax I have seen--except maybe
> perl's. In my opinion, python's syntax is much more human readable than
> ruby's. I guess if you are coming from perl, then ruby's syntax would
> seem incredibly clear. Of course, if you know a language well, it's
> easy to read. I think the test is whether someone who doesn't know a
> language well can make heads or tails out of what is going on in some
> basic code. I don't think ruby is ever going to be readable in that way.
>

I will refer to your comments. Thank you for serious advice.

[...snip...]



Byung-Hee HWANG 09-30-2007 02:16 PM

Re: Can you please help to make decision?
 
On Sun, 2007-09-30 at 19:19 +0900, Robert Dober wrote:
> On 9/30/07, SpringFlowers AutumnMoon <summercoolness@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Byung-Hee HWANG wrote:
> > > Fist of all, sorry for poor English, I am not professional English
> > > speaker. I have some plan to do study computer language for my work. But
> > > still I do not make decision what to do study between Ruby and Python. I
> > > never have experience to use any computer language. I think Ruby's
> > > design is clean, whereas it does not have many libraries to use
> > > somebody.

> >
> > Ruby, no question about it.

> Of course 100% Ruby unless you ask the question on the Python Mailing List ;).
> I however feel that if one might argue if Ruby or Python is the better
> language for ages if it comes to decide which one of the both to
> learn first Ruby really wins, here is my personal list why:
>
> - a clean (probably one of the cleanest) object oriented design, example
> 12.to_s (Ry) vs. str(12) (Py)
> - a simpler (not simple by any means, but simpler) Inheritance Model
> - a little bit less esotheric (syntax and metraprogramming) thus what
> you learn about Ruby will be more usable for other languages e.g.
> Smalltalk
> - simpler, Python got very, very powerful but at the cost of advanced
> techniques, the Ruby learning curve will be much flatter.
> - and this is my favorite: "Code Blocks", learning to use code blocks
> is probably the single greatest benefit from learning Ruby, Python
> just will not give this to you.
>
> This is a single opinion of a single minded guy of course ;).
> Robert


Thank you for kindness..

Byung-Hee



Morton Goldberg 09-30-2007 03:02 PM

Re: Can you please help to make decision?
 
On Sep 30, 2007, at 9:47 AM, 7stud -- wrote:

> 5)
> - and this is my favorite: "Code Blocks", learning to use code blocks
> is probably the single greatest benefit from learning Ruby, Python
> just will not give this to you.
>
> I don't know what "code blocks" are and the subject isn't in the
> appendix of ruby's bible: pickaxe2, so I can't comment on that.


Look under 'block' not 'code block'.

Regards, Morton




Robert Dober 09-30-2007 03:48 PM

Re: Can you please help to make decision?
 
On 9/30/07, 7stud -- <dolgun@excite.com> wrote:
> I would choose python.
>

First of all is great that somebody speaks out honestly like this, and
it will give a great discussion, looking forward to it
> 1)
> >a clean (probably one of the cleanest) object oriented design, example:

> <snip>
>
> Convert the number 12 to a string:
>
> ruby: my_str = 12.to_s
>
> python: my_str = str(12)
>
> I have a hard time understanding how either method has an advantage over
> the other. It's totally irrelevant in my opinion. Personally, I think
> using a number to call a method looks ugly. But I can adapt pretty
> easily.

That is not really the issue, remember I was talking to a beginner.
12.to_s means it is Integer's responsibility to convert itself to a String
str(12) means it is Kernel's responsibility to convert Integer's to Strings
the second just does not feel OO to me.
>
> 2)
> - a simpler (not simple by any means, but simpler) Inheritance Model
>
> I have never studied a simple inheritance model. I don't have enough
> experience with Ruby's inheritance model yet to know which is simpler.
> Once again, I think trying to decide which is simpler is totally
> irrelevant--especially for a beginner who has never programmed in any
> language before.

Well you mean the shall start running before walking? Why not if they
are well guided, I could easily tell a beginner start with Python but
be aware of all dangers of MI. Is there good materiel like that on
Python? I guess a link would be appreciated.
In the end it might be simpler to learn walking first, but it is not a
strict rule.
>
> 3)
> - a little bit less esotheric (syntax and metraprogramming) thus what
> you learn about Ruby will be more usable for other languages e.g.
> Smalltalk
>
> I think ruby's syntax looks like chicken scratchings, and I have a C++
> background. C++ has the most difficult syntax I have seen--except maybe
> perl's. In my opinion, python's syntax is much more human readable than
> ruby's. I guess if you are coming from perl, then ruby's syntax would
> seem incredibly clear. Of course, if you know a language well, it's
> easy to read. I think the test is whether someone who doesn't know a
> language well can make heads or tails out of what is going on in some
> basic code. I don't think ruby is ever going to be readable in that way.

Ok maybe I should have said that this is a personal POV, however
>
> Ruby also relies heavily on regex's, and regex's are never going to be
> easy to read for anyone. regex's are not beginner friendly, and that
> might be a big barrier for a beginner trying to learn ruby. There are
> lots of people who just can't learn regex's.

with all due respect that is nonsense, regexs are what they are, in
Perl, Python or Ruby.
>
>
> 4)
> - simpler, Python got very, very powerful but at the cost of advanced
> techniques, the Ruby learning curve will be much flatter.
>
> I doubt that Ruby's learning curve is flatter. I think python and ruby
> are close neighbors as far as languages go. In fact, there are some
> similarities that it will make you wonder who copied who with regard to
> certain features. However, I would guess that python's learning curve
> is easier for beginners because the subject of classes doesn't come up
> until about the middle of a python book.

And that is to late IMHO,
> python is a language that can
> be used effectively without classes if the concept of classes is too
> difficult for a beginner to grasp.

Yes but should they, I guess a pure question of taste, but I give
partially in on it.
Might really depend on the student's style.
>
> Overall, I think python's online documentation is pretty poor, but I
> think ruby's is worse.

Ok no discussion here, I give you that point
But the Ruby community seems more helpful than Python's, do you agree?
<PHP stuff snipped>
> There is also more information about python available on the web since
> the python community is much larger.

yes but see above
>
> 5)
> - and this is my favorite: "Code Blocks", learning to use code blocks
> is probably the single greatest benefit from learning Ruby, Python
> just will not give this to you.
>
> I don't know what "code blocks" are and the subject isn't in the
> appendix of ruby's bible: pickaxe2, so I can't comment on that.

What? Are you sure I mean {} and do end
>
> 6) I find tracking down errors is more difficult in ruby than python.
> python has better error messages. For instance, in ruby if you forget
> one 'end' in your code somewhere('end' is used to terminate a section of
> code), the error message will say that there is an error on the last
> line of your program. As a result, you have to go hunting through your
> whole program to figure out where you forgot an 'end'. That's
> aggravating.

I give it to you for Syntax errors, but when it come to Stack Traces
OMG Ruby beats Python by magnitudes.
>
> 7) There are some really nice little touches that python implements,
> which make programming less aggravating. I'll highlight one.
> <snip>

No please not that, that is not important, whoever does not implement
that kind of basic method his way anyway, and for a beginner,
really...

> 8) Then there are the well documented major shortcomings of Ruby---it is
> slow.

I think it is fast, it is even lightening fast for a beginner for
whome typing speed is much more important than execution speed.
> Rubyists will say, "Who cares?! I'm in no rush to get the
> results of my programs."

Yup they will :)
>That's well and good, but it's nice to have
> more speed if you need it. Rubyists will counter, "If I need the speed,
> I'll program in C." That's great if you know C, but what if you only
> know ruby? python executes much faster than ruby, and just like ruby,
> you can program the slow parts in C if you need even more speed.


Now I am making a brisk statement: Somebody learning Ruby today will
have as fast Rubies available as Pythons, when she is master.
>
> Good luck with your choice.

And again I agree 100% with you ;)

Robert
--
what do I think about Ruby?
http://ruby-smalltalk.blogspot.com/


Phlip 09-30-2007 03:53 PM

Re: Can you please help to make decision?
 
Robert Dober wrote:

>> I would choose python.
>>

> First of all is great that somebody speaks out honestly like this, and
> it will give a great discussion, looking forward to it


(-;

(2 years of pure Python, folks, and not going back...)

--
Phlip


William James 09-30-2007 05:07 PM

Re: Can you please help to make decision?
 
On Sep 30, 8:47 am, 7stud -- <dol...@excite.com> wrote:
[...]
> Ruby also relies heavily on regex's, and regex's are never going to be
> easy to read for anyone. regex's are not beginner friendly, and that
> might be a big barrier for a beginner trying to learn ruby. There are
> lots of people who just can't learn regex's.


Those are probably the same people who can't figure out
what a code block is. Even little old Awk relies heavily on
regular expressions, which should be learned by anyone who
wants to rise above COBOL and BASIC and C.

[...]
> 5)
> - and this is my favorite: "Code Blocks", learning to use code blocks
> is probably the single greatest benefit from learning Ruby, Python
> just will not give this to you.
>
> I don't know what "code blocks" are and the subject isn't in the
> appendix of ruby's bible: pickaxe2, so I can't comment on that.


Zounds!

And yet the soul, shut up in her dark room,
Viewing so clear abroad, at home sees nothing;
But, like a mole in earth, busy and blind,
Works all her folly up, and casts it outward
To the world's open view.
---Dryden

[...]
> 7) There are some really nice little touches that python implements,
> which make programming less aggravating. I'll highlight one.
>
> Both ruby and python have string formatting, which requires more typing
> as well as typing harder to reach characters on the keyboard in order to
> output some information to the screen. But let's say you just want to
> quickly display something to the screen with minimal typing. In ruby,
> you can use the method: puts. For instance,
>
> val1 = 10
> val2 = 20
>
> puts val1, val2
>
> puts adds a newline after each value, so the output is:
>
> 10
> 20
>
> But, what if you want to print two things on the same line. Ruby also
> has a print method:
>
> print val1, val2
>
> but the output will be: 1020. To get some separation, you have to do
> this:
>
> print val1, " ", val2
>
> and then the output will be: 10 20. Having to include the quoted space
> in there is almost not worth the effort--you might be swayed to use the
> more laborious string formatting instead. In addition, print does not
> add a newline at the end, so to keep any subsequent output from
> displaying on the same line, you need to write:
>
> print val1, " ", val2, "\n"
>
> That's just too much of a hassle. Using puts with string formatting is
> probably no harder to type:
>
> puts "#{val1} #{val2}"
>
> So much for being able to type something quickly that displays a few
> values to the screen.
>
> In python, the print command is like the puts method in ruby. However,
> it works a little bit differently. The statement:
>
> print val1, val2
>
> works differently in two ways:
>
> 1) print adds a newline after all the output--not after each variable
> 2) print automatically adds a space between each variable
>
> So this code:
>
> val1 = 10
> val2 = 20
>
> print val1, val2
>
> produces the output: 10 20, and since print automatically adds a newline
> after all the output, the next print statement won't display output on
> the same line. As a result, python's print statement is incredibly
> handy and easy to use. I think it shows how much thought is put into
> the details of the language.


Apparently, Ruby gives the programmer more power here.
Just as Awk has OFS (output-field-separator) and ORS
(output-record-separator), Ruby has $, and $\.

E:\Ruby>irb --prompt xmp
print 88,99
8899 ==>nil
$, = ' '
==>" "
print 88,99
88 99 ==>nil
$\ = "\n"
==>"\n"
print 88,99
88 99
==>nil
$, = '--'
==>"--"
print 88,99
88--99
==>nil
$\ = "<<\n"
==>"<<\n"
print 88,99
88--99<<
==>nil




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