Velocity Reviews

Velocity Reviews (http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/index.php)
-   Python (http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/f43-python.html)
-   -   what does 'a=b=c=[]' do (http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/t807237-what-does-a-b-c-do.html)

Eric 12-21-2011 10:25 PM

what does 'a=b=c=[]' do
 
Is it true that if I want to create an array or arbitrary size such
as:
for a in range(n):
x.append(<some function...>)

I must do this instead?
x=[]
for a in range(n):
x.append(<some function...>)

Now to my actual question. I need to do the above for multiple arrays
(all the same, arbitrary size). So I do this:
x=y=z=[]
for a in range(n):
x.append(<some function...>)
y.append(<some other function...>)
z.append(<yet another function...>)

Except it seems that I didn't create three different arrays, I created
one array that goes by three different names (i.e. x[], y[] and z[]
all reference the same pile of numbers, no idea which pile).

This surprises me, can someone tell me why it shouldn't? I figure if
I want to create and initialize three scalars the just do "a=b=c=7",
for example, so why not extend it to arrays. Also, is there a more
pythonic way to do "x=[], y=[], z=[]"?

It's a slick language but I still have trouble wrapping my brain
around some of the concepts.

TIA,
eric

Dennis Lee Bieber 12-21-2011 11:20 PM

Re: what does 'a=b=c=[]' do
 
On Wed, 21 Dec 2011 14:25:17 -0800 (PST), Eric <einazaki668@yahoo.com>
wrote:


>Except it seems that I didn't create three different arrays, I created
>one array that goes by three different names (i.e. x[], y[] and z[]
>all reference the same pile of numbers, no idea which pile).
>
>This surprises me, can someone tell me why it shouldn't? I figure if
>I want to create and initialize three scalars the just do "a=b=c=7",
>for example, so why not extend it to arrays. Also, is there a more
>pythonic way to do "x=[], y=[], z=[]"?
>
>It's a slick language but I still have trouble wrapping my brain
>around some of the concepts.
>

The key one is that lists ([] defines a list, not an array) are
"mutable". Your "7" is not mutable.

a = b = c = 7
does the same thing as
a = b = c = []
which is to define the names "a", "b", and "c", and connects the three
names to the single object (integer 7 or new empty list).

b = 8
then /disconnects/ the name "b" from the object (empty list or integer
7) and connects the name to an integer 8 object.

b = [1, 2, 3]
disconnects the name "b" from the object and connects it to a list
object containing three elements.

b.append("something")
however is going "inside" the object to change what it contains -- the
connection remains the same object however.

>>> a,b,c=[[] for x in range(3)]
>>> a.append(1)
>>> b

[]
>>> c

[]
>>> a

[1]
>>>


For the amount of typing, it's easier to just do a straight line
tuple unpack

>>> a,b,c = ([],[],[])
>>> a.append(2)
>>> a

[2]
>>> b

[]
>>> c

[]
>>>


--
Wulfraed Dennis Lee Bieber AF6VN
wlfraed@ix.netcom.com HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/


Steven D'Aprano 12-21-2011 11:44 PM

Re: what does 'a=b=c=[]' do
 
On Wed, 21 Dec 2011 14:25:17 -0800, Eric wrote:

> Is it true that if I want to create an array or arbitrary size such as:
> for a in range(n):
> x.append(<some function...>)


x is not defined, so you will get a NameError unless by some lucky fluke
something else has created x AND it happens to be a list. Either way, it
is unlikely to do what you want.


> I must do this instead?
> x=[]
> for a in range(n):
> x.append(<some function...>)


Yes, you should create your lists before trying to append to them.

But you aren't forced to use a for-loop. You can use a list comprehension:

x = [some_function(a) for a in range(n)]

Notice that here you don't need x to pre-exist, because the list comp
creates a brand new list, which then gets assigned directly to x.


> Now to my actual question. I need to do the above for multiple arrays
> (all the same, arbitrary size). So I do this:
> x=y=z=[]


This creates one empty list object, and gives it three names, x, y and z.
Every time you append to the list, all three names see the same change,
because they refer to a single list.

[...]
> Except it seems that I didn't create three different arrays, I created
> one array that goes by three different names (i.e. x[], y[] and z[] all
> reference the same pile of numbers, no idea which pile).


Exactly.

> This surprises me, can someone tell me why it shouldn't?


Because that's the way Python works. Python is an object-oriented, name
binding language. This is how OO name binding works: you have a single
object, with three names bound to it. The above line is short-cut for:

a = []
b = a
c = a

Python does not make a copy of the list unless you specifically instruct
it to.


> I figure if I
> want to create and initialize three scalars the just do "a=b=c=7",


That creates a single integer object with value 7, and binds three names
to it, *exactly* the same as the above.

If you could modify int objects in place, like you can modify lists in
place, you would see precisely the same effect. But ints are immutable:
all operations on ints create new ints. Lists are mutable, and can be
changed in place.

> for
> example, so why not extend it to arrays. Also, is there a more pythonic
> way to do "x=[], y=[], z=[]"?


Well that literally won't work, you can't separate them by commas.
Newlines or semicolons will work.

Or: x, y, z = [], [], []

Either is pretty Pythonic.



--
Steven

Steven D'Aprano 12-21-2011 11:48 PM

Re: what does 'a=b=c=[]' do
 
On Wed, 21 Dec 2011 18:20:16 -0500, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:

> For the amount of typing, it's easier to just do a straight line
> tuple unpack
>
>>>> a,b,c = ([],[],[])


Note that tuples are created by the comma, not the round brackets (or
parentheses for any Americans reading). So the round brackets there are
strictly redundant:

a, b, c = [], [], []

The only times you need the brackets around a tuple is to control the
precedence of operations, or for an empty tuple.


--
Steven

alex23 12-22-2011 12:50 AM

Re: what does 'a=b=c=[]' do
 
On Dec 22, 8:25*am, Eric <einazaki...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> This surprises me, can someone tell me why it shouldn't? *I figure if
> I want to create and initialize three scalars the just do "a=b=c=7",
> for example, so why not extend it to arrays.


The thing to remember is that everything is an object, and that it's
better to think of variables as labels on an object.

So: a=b=c=7 means that _one_ integer object with the value of 7 can be
referenced using any of the labels a, b or c. x=y=z=[] means that
_one_ empty list can be referenced using x, y or z.

The difference is that the value of a number object _cannot be
changed_ ('immutable') while a list can be modified to add or remove
items ('mutable'). a=10 just reassigns the label a to an integer
object of value 10. x.append("foo") _modifies_ the list referred to by
x, which is the same list known as y & z.

> Also, is there a more pythonic way to do "x=[], y=[], z=[]"?


I'd say that _is_ the most pythonic way, it's very obvious in its
intent (or would be with appropriate names). If it bothers you that
much:

def listgen(count, default=[]):
for _ in xrange(count):
yield default[:]

x, y, z = listgen(3)


Rolf Camps 12-22-2011 08:51 AM

Re: what does 'a=b=c=[]' do
 
alex23 schreef op wo 21-12-2011 om 16:50 [-0800]:
> On Dec 22, 8:25 am, Eric <einazaki...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > This surprises me, can someone tell me why it shouldn't? I figure if
> > I want to create and initialize three scalars the just do "a=b=c=7",
> > for example, so why not extend it to arrays.

>
> The thing to remember is that everything is an object, and that it's
> better to think of variables as labels on an object.
>
> So: a=b=c=7 means that _one_ integer object with the value of 7 can be
> referenced using any of the labels a, b or c. x=y=z=[] means that
> _one_ empty list can be referenced using x, y or z.
>
> The difference is that the value of a number object _cannot be
> changed_ ('immutable') while a list can be modified to add or remove
> items ('mutable'). a=10 just reassigns the label a to an integer
> object of value 10. x.append("foo") _modifies_ the list referred to by
> x, which is the same list known as y & z.
>
> > Also, is there a more pythonic way to do "x=[], y=[], z=[]"?

>
> I'd say that _is_ the most pythonic way, it's very obvious in its
> intent (or would be with appropriate names). If it bothers you that
> much:
>
> def listgen(count, default=[]):
> for _ in xrange(count):
> yield default[:]
>
> x, y, z = listgen(3)
>



I'm afraid it's dangerous to encourage the use of '[]' as assignment to
a parameter in a function definition. If you use the function several
times 'default' always points to the same list.

>>> def return_list(list_ = []):
>>> return list_
>>> a_list = return_list()
>>> a_list

[]
>>> a_list.append(3)
>>> a_list

[3]
>>> b_list = return_list()
>>> b_list
>>> [3] # !!??


>>> def return_list():
>>> return []
>>> a_list = return_list()
>>> a_list

[]
>>> a_list.append(3)
>>> a_list

[3]
>>> b_list = return_list()
>>> b_list
>>> [] # OK!


I only use python3 so I don't know how these things work in other
versions.

No problem in your function since you yield a copy, but I've already
seen long threads about this.

I would change your function to (Python3.x):

def empty_lists(count):
for _ in range(count):
yield []


Regards,

Rolf





Ethan Furman 12-22-2011 01:20 PM

Re: what does 'a=b=c=[]' do
 
Rolf Camps wrote:
> alex23 schreef op wo 21-12-2011 om 16:50 [-0800]:
>> I'd say that _is_ the most pythonic way, it's very obvious in its
>> intent (or would be with appropriate names). If it bothers you that
>> much:
>>
>> def listgen(count, default=[]):
>> for _ in xrange(count):
>> yield default[:]
>>
>> x, y, z = listgen(3)
>>

> I would change your function to (Python3.x):
>
> def empty_lists(count):
> for _ in range(count):
> yield []


While it's good to be careful, default mutable arguments have their
place. Alex's versioun allows one to use an already existing list and
get shallow copies of it, yours will only create empty lists.

a, b, c = listgen([1, 2, 3])
# a, b, & c are bound to different lists

~Ethan~

alex23 12-23-2011 02:10 AM

Re: what does 'a=b=c=[]' do
 
On Dec 22, 6:51*pm, Rolf Camps <r...@roce.be> wrote:
> I'm afraid it's dangerous to encourage the use of '[]' as assignment to
> a parameter in a function definition. If you use the function several
> times 'default' always points to the same list.


I appreciate the concern, but adding a default argument guard would
not only obscure the code. It's irrelevant, as you recognise, because
no matter what, it's going to make copies of the default argument.

You know what the say about foolish consistencies :)

Ian Kelly 12-23-2011 02:59 AM

Re: what does 'a=b=c=[]' do
 
On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 7:10 PM, alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 22, 6:51*pm, Rolf Camps <r...@roce.be> wrote:
>> I'm afraid it's dangerous to encourage the use of '[]' as assignment to
>> a parameter in a function definition. If you use the function several
>> times 'default' always points to the same list.

>
> I appreciate the concern, but adding a default argument guard would
> not only obscure the code. It's irrelevant, as you recognise, because
> no matter what, it's going to make copies of the default argument.


It's only irrelevant in the immediate context of the code you posted.
But when Joe Novice sees your code and likes it and duplicates it a
million times without receiving any warning about it, he's eventually
going to write a function that modifies its default list argument, and
he'll be in for a nasty surprise when he does.

alex23 12-23-2011 03:40 AM

Re: what does 'a=b=c=[]' do
 
On Dec 23, 12:59*pm, Ian Kelly <ian.g.ke...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It's only irrelevant in the immediate context of the code you posted.
> But when Joe Novice sees your code and likes it and duplicates it a
> million times


I'm sorry, but I'm not going to modify my coding style for the sake of
bad programmers.

The context is _important_. Why should I guard against default
argument mutability when its not going to occur in the function body?


All times are GMT. The time now is 12:44 PM.

Powered by vBulletin®. Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO ©2010, Crawlability, Inc.