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-   -   NEWBIE NEEDS DIRECTION (http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/t798011-newbie-needs-direction.html)

John 02-22-2005 04:17 PM

NEWBIE NEEDS DIRECTION
 
I have found almost all the answers I needed on this newgroup and am
grateful for all of the help. I'm hoping this time I will still find
answers I need although they are not as cut and dry as the previous.

I have been developing asp sites on the side for about 4 years now. I have
learned from what I can see more then I could have expected. I was in
teaching in a totally unrelated field until recently and now I am
considering going into this fulltime. The first problem that comes to mind
is that while I have a graduate degree almost none of my educational
background reflects the skill sets I would need for a programming career. I
have learned a lot in 4 years on my own but I need to hustle to round out
what skills I do have to get started.

I just finished my first site for someone that is data driven and uses all
the compulsory ASP technologies. I went into this project with the intent
to go in with both barrells, make mistakes, finish it anyway I could, and
analyze the mistakes so I could begin the process of filling in the gaps.
Here are the things I've identified as things in dire need of improvement.
I'd appreciate suggestions on books that will teach these things "properly"
and not leave me ripping my hair out at 2AM.

1). RDBMS and how it relates to website DB's. I've take a course on this
and have a basic concept for normalizing data but I don't know how to use
and call on that data on a website. For example, I don't know call on field
that in table is a number that uniquely relates to another field in another
table and produce the "name" not the "ID". I suspect that this is done with
JOIN's but these get confusing and I need to understand them BEFORE I design
my next database, not AFTER when it's too late. Not knowing forces me to
ignore normalization in favor of what I know how to do on the front end.

2). SQL syntax for Access (can't get to SQL server, no money right now). I
waste countless hours trying to get SQL strings to work either due to syntax
or delimter problems, etc. I suspect again that understanding Queries
(stored proc's when I can get hands on SQL server) and the Parameters
collection is the right direction. I have Wrox's ASP 3.0 but I need a more
in- depth explanation.

3). JavaScript client side or something else? I'm having validation issues
on the client side and don't know how for to go into JS. I don't have a lot
of time being a career changer and while I know I'll have to learn it sooner
or later I need to know "how much is too much" at this point.

4). Should I learn more intensive VBScript "now" or learn it as I go?

5). At what point should I move into other technologies such as XML? What's
hot? What's not?

Thanks to all!




Adrienne 02-22-2005 06:08 PM

Re: NEWBIE NEEDS DIRECTION
 
Gazing into my crystal ball I observed "John"
<noway@amIgivingitouthere.com> writing in
news:CWISd.24419$vK5.16093@twister.nyroc.rr.com:

> I have found almost all the answers I needed on this newgroup and am
> grateful for all of the help. I'm hoping this time I will still find
> answers I need although they are not as cut and dry as the previous.
>
> I have been developing asp sites on the side for about 4 years now. I
> have learned from what I can see more then I could have expected. I
> was in teaching in a totally unrelated field until recently and now I
> am considering going into this fulltime. The first problem that comes
> to mind is that while I have a graduate degree almost none of my
> educational background reflects the skill sets I would need for a
> programming career. I have learned a lot in 4 years on my own but I
> need to hustle to round out what skills I do have to get started.
>
> I just finished my first site for someone that is data driven and uses
> all the compulsory ASP technologies. I went into this project with the
> intent to go in with both barrells, make mistakes, finish it anyway I
> could, and analyze the mistakes so I could begin the process of filling
> in the gaps. Here are the things I've identified as things in dire need
> of improvement. I'd appreciate suggestions on books that will teach
> these things "properly" and not leave me ripping my hair out at 2AM.
>
> 1). RDBMS and how it relates to website DB's. I've take a course on
> this and have a basic concept for normalizing data but I don't know how
> to use and call on that data on a website. For example, I don't know
> call on field that in table is a number that uniquely relates to
> another field in another table and produce the "name" not the "ID". I
> suspect that this is done with JOIN's but these get confusing and I
> need to understand them BEFORE I design my next database, not AFTER
> when it's too late. Not knowing forces me to ignore normalization in
> favor of what I know how to do on the front end.


Head on over to http://w3schools.com/sql/default.asp . They do a good job
of explaining, and it's also a good resource in case you forget syntax (I
always seem to forget SELECT INTO syntax)


>
> 2). SQL syntax for Access (can't get to SQL server, no money right
> now). I waste countless hours trying to get SQL strings to work either
> due to syntax or delimter problems, etc. I suspect again that
> understanding Queries (stored proc's when I can get hands on SQL
> server) and the Parameters collection is the right direction. I have
> Wrox's ASP 3.0 but I need a more in- depth explanation.


Do yourself a favor and get WinSQL
<http://www.synametrics.com/SynametricsWebApp/WinSQL.jsp>, similar to SQL
Query Analyzer, and will handle Access as well as other databases,
including MySQL and text.

>
> 3). JavaScript client side or something else? I'm having validation
> issues on the client side and don't know how for to go into JS. I
> don't have a lot of time being a career changer and while I know I'll
> have to learn it sooner or later I need to know "how much is too much"
> at this point.


You don't have to get too involved with javascript, because it IS client
side, and should only be used as an enhancement, not a means to an end.

What I would do, if you haven't already, is make the switch to semantic
markup, and leave the presentation to CSS. Use a Strict Document type and
validate your documents <http://validator.w3.org>. Why? You'll find that
removing presenational markup makes your job quicker, easier to debug,
loads faster and smarter for the client, and is friendlier to search
engines and other Internet devices.

>
> 4). Should I learn more intensive VBScript "now" or learn it as I go?


I would try to pick up a bit of PHP as well. You will find a lot of
clients who want PHP (because that's what the host offers, because that's
what they already have, because they are afraid of/don't like Microsoft).
>
> 5). At what point should I move into other technologies such as XML?
> What's hot? What's not?


Go to W3 schools <http://www.w3schools.com> and the W3 <http://www.w3.org>
to see what's going on. Alistapart <http://www.alistapart.com> also has
excellent articles on newer technologies.

>
> Thanks to all!
>


HTH

--
Adrienne Boswell
http://www.cavalcade-of-coding.info
Please respond to the group so others can share

Hal Rosser 02-23-2005 12:25 AM

Re: NEWBIE NEEDS DIRECTION
 
2 good sources - the first one has already been mentioned :
www.w3schools.com

and

http://devguru.com

both are extremely good at most of the (HOT) technology .

by the time you learn ASP, MS will have dropped support for it in favor of
ASP.NET.
I suggest throwing Java in the mix, too.





Bob Barrows [MVP] 02-23-2005 06:49 PM

Re: NEWBIE NEEDS DIRECTION
 
Hal Rosser wrote:
>
> by the time you learn ASP, MS will have dropped support for it in
> favor of ASP.NET.


Where have you heard this? I have heard of no plans for dropping support of
ASP. It's certainly not on any "deprecated technology" list I've seen. Do
you have a citation where this is stated officially? If so I would be very
interested in reading it.

Bob Barrows

--
Microsoft MVP - ASP/ASP.NET
Please reply to the newsgroup. This email account is my spam trap so I
don't check it very often. If you must reply off-line, then remove the
"NO SPAM"



Roland Hall 02-23-2005 10:42 PM

Re: NEWBIE NEEDS DIRECTION
 
"Bob Barrows [MVP]" <reb01501@NOyahoo.SPAMcom> wrote in message
news:ufjXYhdGFHA.2620@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
: Hal Rosser wrote:
: >
: > by the time you learn ASP, MS will have dropped support for it in
: > favor of ASP.NET.
:
: Where have you heard this? I have heard of no plans for dropping support
of
: ASP. It's certainly not on any "deprecated technology" list I've seen. Do
: you have a citation where this is stated officially? If so I would be very
: interested in reading it.

In all fairness, Bob, depending on his learning abilities, he may be right.
(O:=

--
Roland Hall
/* This information is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, but
without any warranty; without even the implied warranty of merchantability
or fitness for a particular purpose. */
Technet Script Center - http://www.microsoft.com/technet/scriptcenter/
WSH 5.6 Documentation - http://msdn.microsoft.com/downloads/list/webdev.asp
MSDN Library - http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp



John 02-23-2005 11:25 PM

Re: NEWBIE NEEDS DIRECTION
 
wow, everywhere I go somehow I start something....

if asp classic isn't deprecated in 6 months then I think I'll be fine ;-P
As for .Net how different is it?

My learning abilities are fine thanks ;-/


"Roland Hall" <nobody@nowhere> wrote in message
news:%23%23YKljfGFHA.3076@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
> "Bob Barrows [MVP]" <reb01501@NOyahoo.SPAMcom> wrote in message
> news:ufjXYhdGFHA.2620@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
> : Hal Rosser wrote:
> : >
> : > by the time you learn ASP, MS will have dropped support for it in
> : > favor of ASP.NET.
> :
> : Where have you heard this? I have heard of no plans for dropping support
> of
> : ASP. It's certainly not on any "deprecated technology" list I've seen.

Do
> : you have a citation where this is stated officially? If so I would be

very
> : interested in reading it.
>
> In all fairness, Bob, depending on his learning abilities, he may be

right.
> (O:=
>
> --
> Roland Hall
> /* This information is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, but
> without any warranty; without even the implied warranty of merchantability
> or fitness for a particular purpose. */
> Technet Script Center - http://www.microsoft.com/technet/scriptcenter/
> WSH 5.6 Documentation -

http://msdn.microsoft.com/downloads/list/webdev.asp
> MSDN Library - http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp
>
>




Bob Barrows [MVP] 02-23-2005 11:37 PM

Re: NEWBIE NEEDS DIRECTION
 
Roland Hall wrote:
> "Bob Barrows [MVP]" <reb01501@NOyahoo.SPAMcom> wrote in message
> news:ufjXYhdGFHA.2620@tk2msftngp13.phx.gbl...
>> Hal Rosser wrote:
>>>
>>> by the time you learn ASP, MS will have dropped support for it in
>>> favor of ASP.NET.

>>
>> Where have you heard this? I have heard of no plans for dropping
>> support of ASP. It's certainly not on any "deprecated technology"
>> list I've seen. Do you have a citation where this is stated
>> officially? If so I would be very interested in reading it.

>
> In all fairness, Bob, depending on his learning abilities, he may be
> right. (O:=


:-)
I realize you are making a joke, but the "fairness" word makes me realize
that my request for information may have been interpreted as an attack.
Sorry Hal. I should have worded it better. I wasn't attacking, I simply
wished to know your source of information.

Bob

--
Microsoft MVP - ASP/ASP.NET
Please reply to the newsgroup. This email account is my spam trap so I
don't check it very often. If you must reply off-line, then remove the
"NO SPAM"



Hal Rosser 02-24-2005 01:21 AM

Re: NEWBIE NEEDS DIRECTION
 
> >> Hal Rosser wrote:
> >>>
> >>> by the time you learn ASP, MS will have dropped support for it in
> >>> favor of ASP.NET.
> >>

==== unca Bob Replied ===
> >> Where have you heard this? I have heard of no plans for dropping
> >> support of ASP. It's certainly not on any "deprecated technology"

==================
and my current response:
You may be right. I should not use historical events to predict the future.
My statement was pure speculation - and not based on any privileged
information..
My apologies to the believers.
=== ;-)



Roland Hall 02-24-2005 09:29 AM

Re: NEWBIE NEEDS DIRECTION
 
"John" wrote in message news:Nh8Td.37439$H05.13020@twister.nyroc.rr.com...
: wow, everywhere I go somehow I start something....
:
: if asp classic isn't deprecated in 6 months then I think I'll be fine ;-P
: As for .Net how different is it?
:
: My learning abilities are fine thanks ;-/

Just havin' fun John...looks like you're aware. (O:=

--
Roland Hall
/* This information is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, but
without any warranty; without even the implied warranty of merchantability
or fitness for a particular purpose. */
Technet Script Center - http://www.microsoft.com/technet/scriptcenter/
WSH 5.6 Documentation - http://msdn.microsoft.com/downloads/list/webdev.asp
MSDN Library - http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp





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