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-   -   Re: Debugger Recommendation (http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/t753374-re-debugger-recommendation.html)

jacob navia 08-29-2011 05:19 PM

Re: Debugger Recommendation
 
Le 29/08/11 16:40, Joseph Hesse a écrit :
> Hi,
>
> I have never used a debugger and would like to know which one(s) are the
> best. I prefer one with a graphic interface.
>
> I use gnu c++ and Linux.
>
> Thank you,
> Joe


Buy TotalView, it is the best. It comes vith a good GUI

http://www.roguewave.com/products/to...totalview.aspx

And avoid gdb... It is the worst

Waldek M. 08-29-2011 07:37 PM

Re: Debugger Recommendation
 
On Mon, 29 Aug 2011 19:19:39 +0200, jacob navia wrote:
>> I have never used a debugger and would like to know which one(s) are the
>> best. I prefer one with a graphic interface.
>>

> Buy TotalView, it is the best. It comes vith a good GUI
> http://www.roguewave.com/products/to...totalview.aspx


The "best" because...?

> And avoid gdb... It is the worst


The "worst", because...?

I'm asking because I've been using gdb for years and I haven't seen
anything better than this. It's also free, it's available
everywhere on Linux and it just works.
True, for GUI users, it may suck. But not because it's a bad
debugger, only.. it has no GUI, and third party GUIs are not
state-of-art.
However to me, lack of GUI is actually an advantage.

Br.
Waldek

Ian Collins 08-29-2011 07:51 PM

Re: Debugger Recommendation
 
On 08/30/11 07:37 AM, Waldek M. wrote:
> On Mon, 29 Aug 2011 19:19:39 +0200, jacob navia wrote:
>>> I have never used a debugger and would like to know which one(s) are the
>>> best. I prefer one with a graphic interface.
>>>

>> Buy TotalView, it is the best. It comes vith a good GUI
>> http://www.roguewave.com/products/to...totalview.aspx

>
> The "best" because...?
>
>> And avoid gdb... It is the worst

>
> The "worst", because...?
>
> I'm asking because I've been using gdb for years and I haven't seen
> anything better than this. It's also free, it's available
> everywhere on Linux and it just works.
> True, for GUI users, it may suck. But not because it's a bad
> debugger, only.. it has no GUI, and third party GUIs are not
> state-of-art.


I guess those who use Eclipse or NetBeans would disagree with you about
the state of the art!

--
Ian Collins

jacob navia 08-29-2011 08:51 PM

Re: Debugger Recommendation
 
Le 29/08/11 21:37, Waldek M. a écrit :
> On Mon, 29 Aug 2011 19:19:39 +0200, jacob navia wrote:
>>> I have never used a debugger and would like to know which one(s) are the
>>> best. I prefer one with a graphic interface.
>>>

>> Buy TotalView, it is the best. It comes vith a good GUI
>> http://www.roguewave.com/products/to...totalview.aspx

>
> The "best" because...?
>
>> And avoid gdb... It is the worst

>
> The "worst", because...?
>
> I'm asking because I've been using gdb for years and I haven't seen
> anything better than this. It's also free, it's available
> everywhere on Linux and it just works.
> True, for GUI users, it may suck. But not because it's a bad
> debugger, only.. it has no GUI, and third party GUIs are not
> state-of-art.
> However to me, lack of GUI is actually an advantage.
>



Why I hate gdb?

Let me count the ways:

1) No user interface that is conceived to help the user
debug its program. Obscure commands full of exceptions and
gotchas, and cryptic commands. For instance to get the registers
you write:

info registers

And then you discover that the floating point registers
are missing. How do you print those?

info float

Why "float"? They are registers like any other! But
remember: "Do NOT try to undertand gdb. It has to be
learnt by heart"

I have never figured out how do I print the MMX registers
alone. Apparently is impossible.

The original poster said: "I have never used a debugger".
Gdb couldn't be a worst introduction to a debugger.

2) Commands are difficult to use. Example "disassemble".
When entered, this command doesn't intermix C source code
with the disassembly as almost all other debuggers do.
It will print the whole current function scrolling away
all your context. It will not (as Microsoft debugger does)
give you the symbolic name of addresses, even if it does
know that information since the program was compiled with
debug info.

3) Commands use a special syntax with some commands having
a special "mini language" that you have to know by heart.

x/10i $pc

Clear isn't it? And very easy to remember of course.

4) Not to speak about its completely outdated command line
interface, that forces you to write "list" again and again
to see where you are in the source code. If emacs (another
gnu product) can use termcaps and have a text mode "full
screen" console why gdb can't?

This debugger hasn't improved anything in its user interface
since 1980 more or less. But all people that love GNU love
gdb and I will get flamed endlessly by them for telling that
gdb has no clothes!




jacob navia 08-29-2011 08:52 PM

Re: Debugger Recommendation
 
Le 29/08/11 21:51, Ian Collins a écrit :
> On 08/30/11 07:37 AM, Waldek M. wrote:
>> On Mon, 29 Aug 2011 19:19:39 +0200, jacob navia wrote:
>>>> I have never used a debugger and would like to know which one(s) are
>>>> the
>>>> best. I prefer one with a graphic interface.
>>>>
>>> Buy TotalView, it is the best. It comes vith a good GUI
>>> http://www.roguewave.com/products/to...totalview.aspx

>>
>> The "best" because...?
>>
>>> And avoid gdb... It is the worst

>>
>> The "worst", because...?
>>
>> I'm asking because I've been using gdb for years and I haven't seen
>> anything better than this. It's also free, it's available
>> everywhere on Linux and it just works.
>> True, for GUI users, it may suck. But not because it's a bad
>> debugger, only.. it has no GUI, and third party GUIs are not
>> state-of-art.

>
> I guess those who use Eclipse or NetBeans would disagree with you about
> the state of the art!
>


STATE OF THE ART!!!

GDB STATE OF THE ART!!!

Its interface hasn't changed at least since 1990.



Ian Collins 08-29-2011 08:56 PM

Re: Debugger Recommendation
 
On 08/30/11 08:52 AM, jacob navia wrote:
> Le 29/08/11 21:51, Ian Collins a écrit :
>> On 08/30/11 07:37 AM, Waldek M. wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm asking because I've been using gdb for years and I haven't seen
>>> anything better than this. It's also free, it's available
>>> everywhere on Linux and it just works.
>>> True, for GUI users, it may suck. But not because it's a bad
>>> debugger, only.. it has no GUI, and third party GUIs are not
>>> state-of-art.

>>
>> I guess those who use Eclipse or NetBeans would disagree with you about
>> the state of the art!
>>

>
> STATE OF THE ART!!!
>
> GDB STATE OF THE ART!!!
>
> Its interface hasn't changed at least since 1990.


I was referring to the IDEs, not the debugger.

Dressing mutton as lamb is part of an IDE designer's job!

--
Ian Collins

jacob navia 08-29-2011 09:00 PM

Re: Debugger Recommendation
 
Le 29/08/11 22:56, Ian Collins a écrit :
> On 08/30/11 08:52 AM, jacob navia wrote:
>> Le 29/08/11 21:51, Ian Collins a écrit :
>>> On 08/30/11 07:37 AM, Waldek M. wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I'm asking because I've been using gdb for years and I haven't seen
>>>> anything better than this. It's also free, it's available
>>>> everywhere on Linux and it just works.
>>>> True, for GUI users, it may suck. But not because it's a bad
>>>> debugger, only.. it has no GUI, and third party GUIs are not
>>>> state-of-art.
>>>
>>> I guess those who use Eclipse or NetBeans would disagree with you about
>>> the state of the art!
>>>

>>
>> STATE OF THE ART!!!
>>
>> GDB STATE OF THE ART!!!
>>
>> Its interface hasn't changed at least since 1990.

>
> I was referring to the IDEs, not the debugger.
>
> Dressing mutton as lamb is part of an IDE designer's job!
>

No. I wrote a debugger complete with GUI for the lcc-win
system and I did not use any underlying gdb or other debugger.

> Dressing mutton as lamb is part of an IDE designer's job!


That's exactly what many "ide" designers think, and that is
why the "ide"s of linux SUCK so much. They are completely USELESS.

An IDE must IMPROVE the command line programs.

Ian Collins 08-29-2011 09:21 PM

Re: Debugger Recommendation
 
On 08/30/11 09:00 AM, jacob navia wrote:
> Le 29/08/11 22:56, Ian Collins a écrit :
>> On 08/30/11 08:52 AM, jacob navia wrote:
>>> Le 29/08/11 21:51, Ian Collins a écrit :
>>>> On 08/30/11 07:37 AM, Waldek M. wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm asking because I've been using gdb for years and I haven't seen
>>>>> anything better than this. It's also free, it's available
>>>>> everywhere on Linux and it just works.
>>>>> True, for GUI users, it may suck. But not because it's a bad
>>>>> debugger, only.. it has no GUI, and third party GUIs are not
>>>>> state-of-art.
>>>>
>>>> I guess those who use Eclipse or NetBeans would disagree with you about
>>>> the state of the art!
>>>>
>>>
>>> STATE OF THE ART!!!
>>>
>>> GDB STATE OF THE ART!!!
>>>
>>> Its interface hasn't changed at least since 1990.

>>
>> I was referring to the IDEs, not the debugger.
>>
>> Dressing mutton as lamb is part of an IDE designer's job!
>>

> No. I wrote a debugger complete with GUI for the lcc-win
> system and I did not use any underlying gdb or other debugger.


Does it do the hard but useful stuff like following the child and parent
across process creation? We all have different needs in a debugger.

> > Dressing mutton as lamb is part of an IDE designer's job!

>
> That's exactly what many "ide" designers think, and that is
> why the "ide"s of linux SUCK so much. They are completely USELESS.


Why do you rant so much? There are probably many tens of thousands of
happy, productive Eclipse and NetBeans users going about their daily
business. If my preferred NetBeans based IDE (Sun Studio) was
completely useless, I'd be in a bit of a bind.

> An IDE must IMPROVE the command line programs.


They do that through visualisation and hyper-links. Being able to see
more than one view of a call stack, more than one collection of data or
the status of multiple threads is where the IDE shines.

--
Ian Collins

Nobody 08-30-2011 03:58 AM

Re: Debugger Recommendation
 
On Mon, 29 Aug 2011 23:00:42 +0200, jacob navia wrote:

> No. I wrote a debugger complete with GUI for the lcc-win
> system and I did not use any underlying gdb or other debugger.


How good is its macro system? E.g. can you define custom printing
functions for key data types?

Without this feature, debugging the C portions of a high-level language
(where practically all of the data are Lisp_Object or PyObject* or
whatever) is a nightmare.


Waldek M. 08-31-2011 07:11 PM

Re: Debugger Recommendation
 
On Mon, 29 Aug 2011 22:51:46 +0200, jacob navia wrote:
> Let me count the ways:
>
> 1) No user interface that is conceived to help the user
> debug its program. Obscure commands full of exceptions and
> gotchas, and cryptic commands. For instance to get the registers
> you write:

[CUT]

All your arguments are actually one argument: you hate it that
it has no built-in GUI. And I can accept it, sure. Just use one that has
one. And works. As simple as that.
Or use ddd/kdbg/whatever if you don't hate them as much.
Don't if you don't. Use some other. Write your own.
Maintain your own. You do? Oh, great. Share it with others,
if you like.

Only, please don't tell everyone around that the debugger
is of low quality because you don't like its interface.
Just write that for you its UI is crappy. Do we have a deal? ;-)

> This debugger hasn't improved anything in its user interface
> since 1980 more or less. But all people that love GNU love
> gdb and I will get flamed endlessly by them for telling that
> gdb has no clothes!


You're point being...?
(a rethorical question, just in case)

Best regards,
Waldek


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