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David Dyer-Bennet 05-24-2011 07:11 PM

Re: Possible to extract high resolution b/w from a raw file?
 
On Tuesday, May 24, 2011 10:16:50 AM UTC-5, Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote:
> Mxsmanic <mxsm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Wolfgang Weisselberg writes:

>
> >> I respectfully submit that that would speak against Windows.

>
> > Actually, it works in favor of Windows, which is the easiest desktop to deploy
> > on a large scale.

>
> I see. Can you please explain why you think it's the
> easiest? Is it easier than buying the hardware, wheeling it
> to the right place, connecting the cables and switching it
> on?


That's a small part of the work of deploying computers. Getting
the right software load on the machines, attaching them to the
directory service, setting policy parameters (what users are
and are not allowed to do), and keeping those things up to
date, can be a huge issue.

I don't do that stuff (I'm a software developer), but I've
certainly been told by those who do that it's easier to do those
with Windows than with anything else these days. Maybe it's true;
it's at least not a surprising claim to me.

> > Thus,
> > deploying Windows on the desktop flattens the learning curve, since so many
> > people already know how to use it and require little or no training.

>
> If by "Windows" you mean "Windows, it's office packet and
> nothing else" you might be right. If you have work involving
> procedures and ways how things must be done and maybe even
> programs for these tasks --- well, one must learn them, no
> matter if one is a Windows crack.
>
> And I submit that for a person a Linux or Mac desktop would only
> be unsolvable puzzling if she didn't know what she was doing and
> was using the windows desktop only by rote. That person would
> be unfit for many computer related tasks anyway.


I'm surprised by how many people find Windows and Mac confusingly
different from each other (just to use the desktop and a few common
programs). Many of these are precisely the people who have
administrative and clerical jobs -- not computer jobs, but they have
to use the computer to do the job.

I frequently help people figure out how to do things on computers I
know nothing about; I'm apparently more used to poking at menus and
figuring things out than they are.

Wolfgang Weisselberg 05-25-2011 03:03 PM

Re: Possible to extract high resolution b/w from a raw file?
 
David Dyer-Bennet <illegalname@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 24, 2011 10:16:50 AM UTC-5, Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote:
>> Mxsmanic <mxsm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Wolfgang Weisselberg writes:


>> >> I respectfully submit that that would speak against Windows.


>> > Actually, it works in favor of Windows, which is the easiest desktop to deploy
>> > on a large scale.


>> I see. Can you please explain why you think it's the
>> easiest? Is it easier than buying the hardware, wheeling it
>> to the right place, connecting the cables and switching it
>> on?


> That's a small part of the work of deploying computers. Getting
> the right software load on the machines,


That's with the plugging in part. Assume an empty HD at the
beginning ...

> attaching them to the
> directory service,


That's with the plugging in part.

> setting policy parameters (what users are
> and are not allowed to do),


That's with the plugging in part.
(Of course, you need to set up things once so the machines
know what to do.)

> and keeping those things up to
> date, can be a huge issue.


There are mechanisms for that.
A cron job, fetching a script matching the platform and task of
the computer would be a crude yet workable solution one can think
up in a moment.

> I don't do that stuff (I'm a software developer), but I've
> certainly been told by those who do that it's easier to do those
> with Windows than with anything else these days. Maybe it's true;
> it's at least not a surprising claim to me.


Well, it'd better be at least easy now, it used to be terrible.

>> And I submit that for a person a Linux or Mac desktop would only
>> be unsolvable puzzling if she didn't know what she was doing and
>> was using the windows desktop only by rote. That person would
>> be unfit for many computer related tasks anyway.


> I'm surprised by how many people find Windows and Mac confusingly
> different from each other (just to use the desktop and a few common
> programs). Many of these are precisely the people who have
> administrative and clerical jobs -- not computer jobs, but they have
> to use the computer to do the job.


So much for computer knowledge. Schools should expose people
to at least 3 different systems and GUIs.

> I frequently help people figure out how to do things on computers I
> know nothing about; I'm apparently more used to poking at menus and
> figuring things out than they are.


You can abstract your knowledge and have a workable model of
how GUIs are designed and how tasks are commonly supposed to
be solved.

-Wolfgang

David Dyer-Bennet 05-25-2011 07:15 PM

Re: Possible to extract high resolution b/w from a raw file?
 
On May 25, 10:03*am, Wolfgang Weisselberg <ozcvgt...@sneakemail.com>
wrote:
> David Dyer-Bennet <illegaln...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Tuesday, May 24, 2011 10:16:50 AM UTC-5, Wolfgang Weisselberg wrote:
> >> Mxsmanic <mxsm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > Wolfgang Weisselberg writes:
> >> >> I respectfully submit that that would speak against Windows.
> >> > Actually, it works in favor of Windows, which is the easiest desktopto deploy
> >> > on a large scale.
> >> I see. *Can you please explain why you think it's the
> >> easiest? *Is it easier than buying the hardware, wheeling it
> >> to the right place, connecting the cables and switching it
> >> on?

> > That's a small part of the work of deploying computers. *Getting
> > the right software load on the machines,

>
> That's with the plugging in part. *Assume an empty HD at the
> beginning ...
>
> > attaching them to the
> > directory service,

>
> That's with the plugging in part.
>
> > setting policy parameters (what users are
> > and are not allowed to do),

>
> That's with the plugging in part.
> (Of course, you need to set up things once so the machines
> know what to do.)


You really need to drive this stuff centrally; job responsibilities
change, and you don't want to be running around finding machines to
change things on.

> > and keeping those things up to
> > date, can be a huge issue.

>
> There are mechanisms for that.
> A cron job, fetching a script matching the platform and task of
> the computer would be a crude yet workable solution one can think
> up in a moment.


There are considerably more sophisticated tools, like puppet, which
I've used to configure Linux servers and keep them in sync. Haven't
tried it for desktop Linux setups.

But server setups are very different from desktop setups. I've never
worked anywhere that does the kind of locked-down desktop setup that
lots of companies have their IT departments perform (as a software
developer, I've always needed considerable control over my machine).

> > I don't do that stuff (I'm a software developer), but I've
> > certainly been told by those who do that it's easier to do those
> > with Windows than with anything else these days. *Maybe it's true;
> > it's at least not a surprising claim to me.

>
> Well, it'd better be at least easy now, it used to be terrible.
>
> >> And I submit that for a person a Linux or Mac desktop would only
> >> be unsolvable puzzling if she didn't know what she was doing and
> >> was using the windows desktop only by rote. *That person would
> >> be unfit for many computer related tasks anyway.

> > I'm surprised by how many people find Windows and Mac confusingly
> > different from each other (just to use the desktop and a few common
> > programs). *Many of these are precisely the people who have
> > administrative and clerical jobs -- not computer jobs, but they have
> > to use the computer to do the job.

>
> So much for computer knowledge. Schools should expose people
> to at least 3 different systems and GUIs.


Until recently, it was not only not required, it wasn't even POSSIBLE
to get exposed to a non-Windows OS in the computer science degree
program at a local community college (two-year institution, so that's
an "Associate" degree, not a full Bachelo's). I helped convince them
(I was on their advisory board for the CS department) to add a Linux
class, and taught the first session of it.

Do primary schools teach computer use at all? Or just assume you've
learned them at home? I don't actually know; I've been out of school
for ages, and I don't recall hearing children of friends talking about
computer courses in school. They didn't (when I was there) teach
typing until highschool, and it was an elective intended for people
heading for a secretarial career there. I taught myself touch-typing
on a manual typewriter when I was 10; came in handy when I started
programming 4 years later and had to punch my own cards.

> > I frequently help people figure out how to do things on computers I
> > know nothing about; I'm apparently more used to poking at menus and
> > figuring things out than they are.

>
> You can abstract your knowledge and have a workable model of
> how GUIs are designed and how tasks are commonly supposed to
> be solved.


Which I take for granted, and is in fact reasonably common among my
social group, but it's by no means universal, especially in the whole
population.

David Dyer-Bennet 05-25-2011 07:16 PM

Re: Possible to extract high resolution b/w from a raw file?
 
On May 25, 10:44*am, bugbear <bugbear@trim_papermule.co.uk_trim>
wrote:
> David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
> > I frequently help people figure out how to do things on computers I
> > know nothing about; I'm apparently more used to poking at menus and
> > figuring things out than they are.

>
> http://xkcd.com/627/


I should just hand out copies of that one to people who ask for
help.
It's all right there.

Whisky-dave 05-26-2011 12:58 PM

Re: Possible to extract high resolution b/w from a raw file?
 
On May 26, 4:07*am, Mxsmanic <mxsma...@gmail.com> wrote:
> David Dyer-Bennet writes:
> > Until recently, it was not only not required, it wasn't even POSSIBLE
> > to get exposed to a non-Windows OS in the computer science degree
> > program at a local community college (two-year institution, so that's
> > an "Associate" degree, not a full Bachelo's). *I helped convince them
> > (I was on their advisory board for the CS department) to add a Linux
> > class, and taught the first session of it.

>
> Odd. Traditionally universities have exposed computer-science studies to UNIX,
> or more recently Linux.


Yes that is true, in fact it was taught long before windows existed.

>In any case, universities almost never expose students
> to anything that actually corresponds to the real world.


Oi we try to honest ;-)
Which is why we now use Macs as well as windows Linux, Unix,
C, C++ and various other languages including assembler, java, java
script
we even have courses that deal with mobile phone apps.



>
> > Which I take for granted, and is in fact reasonably common among my
> > social group, but it's by no means universal, especially in the whole
> > population.

>
> The ability to generally use computers is acquired voluntarily through
> experience, and this requires a strong motivation to acquire that ability..
> Most people couldn't care less about computers and thus have no motivation to
> learn anything other than the absolute minimum require to let them do whatever
> they have to do with a computer. Their lives do not revolve around their
> computers.


Same with those that drive cars.



PeterN 05-26-2011 08:20 PM

Re: Possible to extract high resolution b/w from a raw file?
 
On 5/25/2011 11:07 PM, Mxsmanic wrote:
> David Dyer-Bennet writes:
>
>> Until recently, it was not only not required, it wasn't even POSSIBLE
>> to get exposed to a non-Windows OS in the computer science degree
>> program at a local community college (two-year institution, so that's
>> an "Associate" degree, not a full Bachelo's). I helped convince them
>> (I was on their advisory board for the CS department) to add a Linux
>> class, and taught the first session of it.

>
> Odd. Traditionally universities have exposed computer-science studies to UNIX,
> or more recently Linux. In any case, universities almost never expose students
> to anything that actually corresponds to the real world.
>



I would like to see the data on which your statement is based.


--
Peter


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