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Fred the Ferret 08-31-2006 12:14 PM

Re: System Diagnosis - Hardware Issue
 
On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 07:06:47 -0400
Mister <not_a_chance@this_email_address.com> wrote:

> I would say it was the power supply, however, if you started leaving
> it on, it could also be a heat issue.


I'd look at heat issues first.

> Take the side of the case off for a day or two and see if the problem
> continues, if it does it is a heat issue.


Unless I'm missing something, I don't follow the logic there at all.

The system case needs to be in place along with all blocking plates etc for
good airflow and the cooling fans to work. But taking off the side, how does
that diagnose anything?

Cooling in your system needs to deal with two main heat-sources: the cpu and
the graphics card. Look at the positioning of the graphics card first: is it
near other cards, or anything that could be blocking air flow around it? Can
the other cards be moved/rearranged to create better airflow? Are the IDE
ribbon cables positioned in a way likely to block good air flow around either
the video card or the cpu? Is the system case in a well ventilated place: does
the fan face a wall or dead-air space? Is the problem worse on heavy use (when
heat from the cpu/video card will increase rather than on idle), and worse on
graphics intensive work or just processor-intensive stuff?

The symptoms point to a heat problem, but it could be the psu: is the wattage
sufficient for the different devices you have installed? Have you added
anything new recently, new dvd drive, anything power hungry? Try disabling
other devices, or swapping the psu for one from a known-good system if you have
access to one.

It could be the graphics card. Can you swap it out for one from a known good
system? Does that improve things? (Although if it did, it could still be a heat
issue related to that card.)

It could even be a memory problem, so the advice:

> If that does not do anything, replace the power supply.


is perhaps a bit simplistic. (Of course it could also be corect ;-) )

>



Patty 08-31-2006 01:16 PM

Re: System Diagnosis - Hardware Issue
 
On 31 Aug 2006 12:14:09 -0000, Fred the Ferret wrote:

> On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 07:06:47 -0400
> Mister <not_a_chance@this_email_address.com> wrote:
>
>> Take the side of the case off for a day or two and see if the problem
>> continues, if it does it is a heat issue.

>
> Unless I'm missing something, I don't follow the logic there at all.
>
> The system case needs to be in place along with all blocking plates etc for
> good airflow and the cooling fans to work. But taking off the side, how does
> that diagnose anything?
>


It is a common practice to take the side off the case to test for temp
problems. This equalizes the temperature inside the case to the room
temperature, which is usually cooler. If the symptoms disappear with the
side off, then yes, it is a heat issue.

Most motherboards allow you to check temps in the BIOS, you could look
there or download a program such as speedfan to see what temps are reported
while you are running the system with the case closed. These temp readings,
however, can be affected by how well the motherboard sensor is making
contact with the component.

Perhaps the video card is running too hot. NVidia has a place in their
software that shows the temp the card is running at. You could have a look
there and see what temp is being reported.

Patty

Liz 08-31-2006 01:28 PM

Re: System Diagnosis - Hardware Issue
 
Have you tried a different monitor?

I had an HP with similar problems. I went to HP site and found that
there was an issue with certin monitors. The monitor had a bad
connection, and HP replaced it.


Fred the Ferret wrote:
> On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 07:06:47 -0400
> Mister <not_a_chance@this_email_address.com> wrote:
>
> > I would say it was the power supply, however, if you started leaving
> > it on, it could also be a heat issue.

>
> I'd look at heat issues first.
>
> > Take the side of the case off for a day or two and see if the problem
> > continues, if it does it is a heat issue.

>
> Unless I'm missing something, I don't follow the logic there at all.
>
> The system case needs to be in place along with all blocking plates etc for
> good airflow and the cooling fans to work. But taking off the side, how does
> that diagnose anything?
>
> Cooling in your system needs to deal with two main heat-sources: the cpu and
> the graphics card. Look at the positioning of the graphics card first: is it
> near other cards, or anything that could be blocking air flow around it? Can
> the other cards be moved/rearranged to create better airflow? Are the IDE
> ribbon cables positioned in a way likely to block good air flow around either
> the video card or the cpu? Is the system case in a well ventilated place: does
> the fan face a wall or dead-air space? Is the problem worse on heavy use (when
> heat from the cpu/video card will increase rather than on idle), and worse on
> graphics intensive work or just processor-intensive stuff?
>
> The symptoms point to a heat problem, but it could be the psu: is the wattage
> sufficient for the different devices you have installed? Have you added
> anything new recently, new dvd drive, anything power hungry? Try disabling
> other devices, or swapping the psu for one from a known-good system if you have
> access to one.
>
> It could be the graphics card. Can you swap it out for one from a known good
> system? Does that improve things? (Although if it did, it could still be a heat
> issue related to that card.)
>
> It could even be a memory problem, so the advice:
>
> > If that does not do anything, replace the power supply.

>
> is perhaps a bit simplistic. (Of course it could also be corect ;-) )
>
> >



rdfedor@gmail.com 08-31-2006 03:03 PM

Re: System Diagnosis - Hardware Issue
 
Thanks for all the responses. You've all been helpfull, I'll remove
the side first but the temperature gauge on the case says the inside
temp of the computer is 86 degrees faranheit. The monitor is a 19"
Samsung Syncmaster 955DF and this is only a recent occurance. I'll
look into what everyone said here.

Thanks again,
Roger Fedor


Liz wrote:
> Have you tried a different monitor?
>
> I had an HP with similar problems. I went to HP site and found that
> there was an issue with certin monitors. The monitor had a bad
> connection, and HP replaced it.
>
>
> Fred the Ferret wrote:
> > On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 07:06:47 -0400
> > Mister <not_a_chance@this_email_address.com> wrote:
> >
> > > I would say it was the power supply, however, if you started leaving
> > > it on, it could also be a heat issue.

> >
> > I'd look at heat issues first.
> >
> > > Take the side of the case off for a day or two and see if the problem
> > > continues, if it does it is a heat issue.

> >
> > Unless I'm missing something, I don't follow the logic there at all.
> >
> > The system case needs to be in place along with all blocking plates etc for
> > good airflow and the cooling fans to work. But taking off the side, how does
> > that diagnose anything?
> >
> > Cooling in your system needs to deal with two main heat-sources: the cpu and
> > the graphics card. Look at the positioning of the graphics card first: is it
> > near other cards, or anything that could be blocking air flow around it? Can
> > the other cards be moved/rearranged to create better airflow? Are the IDE
> > ribbon cables positioned in a way likely to block good air flow around either
> > the video card or the cpu? Is the system case in a well ventilated place: does
> > the fan face a wall or dead-air space? Is the problem worse on heavy use (when
> > heat from the cpu/video card will increase rather than on idle), and worse on
> > graphics intensive work or just processor-intensive stuff?
> >
> > The symptoms point to a heat problem, but it could be the psu: is the wattage
> > sufficient for the different devices you have installed? Have you added
> > anything new recently, new dvd drive, anything power hungry? Try disabling
> > other devices, or swapping the psu for one from a known-good system if you have
> > access to one.
> >
> > It could be the graphics card. Can you swap it out for one from a known good
> > system? Does that improve things? (Although if it did, it could still be a heat
> > issue related to that card.)
> >
> > It could even be a memory problem, so the advice:
> >
> > > If that does not do anything, replace the power supply.

> >
> > is perhaps a bit simplistic. (Of course it could also be corect ;-) )
> >
> > >



Fred the Ferret 08-31-2006 04:05 PM

Re: System Diagnosis - Hardware Issue
 
Hi Patty

On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 09:16:51 -0400
Patty <patty@iainttellin.com> wrote:

> On 31 Aug 2006 12:14:09 -0000, Fred the Ferret wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 07:06:47 -0400
> > Mister <not_a_chance@this_email_address.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Take the side of the case off for a day or two and see if the problem
> >> continues, if it does it is a heat issue.

> >
> > Unless I'm missing something, I don't follow the logic there at all.
> >
> > The system case needs to be in place along with all blocking plates etc for
> > good airflow and the cooling fans to work. But taking off the side, how does
> > that diagnose anything?
> >

>
> It is a common practice to take the side off the case to test for temp
> problems. This equalizes the temperature inside the case to the room
> temperature, which is usually cooler. If the symptoms disappear with the
> side off, then yes, it is a heat issue.


Well, first, 'Mister' said if the problem CONTINUES it is a heat issue :(

Secondly, it may be common practice, but I was taught it was 'bad' practice, as
taking off the sides stops the fans working properly, so heat can accumulate
around the cpu / video cards, not equalise as is commonly described. A fully
enclosed system with the fans working properly will be more efficient at
cooling the cpu than one with the sides off: therefore any conclusions drawn by
taking off the sides could be erroneous. It may be counterintuitive, but the
cpu temp will be less with sides on than sides off. It is the cooling effect of
moving air, not the ambient temperature that is significant.




rdfedor@gmail.com 08-31-2006 04:39 PM

Re: System Diagnosis - Hardware Issue
 
It is true, that with the cover off, the fans in the system become
somewhat useless and the flow of air is broken inside is broken.
However, with heat, heat rises so it accumulates on the top of the
system making the fans needed for when the cover is on. With the cover
removed, the heat is not confined to the space inside in the computer
keeping the system at room temperature. As long as the CPU fan is
working properly, the temperture of the CPU should not make a
difference.

Those are just my thoughts on the situation.

Thanks,
Roger Fedor


Fred the Ferret wrote:
> Hi Patty
>
> On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 09:16:51 -0400
> Patty <patty@iainttellin.com> wrote:
>
> > On 31 Aug 2006 12:14:09 -0000, Fred the Ferret wrote:
> >
> > > On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 07:06:47 -0400
> > > Mister <not_a_chance@this_email_address.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Take the side of the case off for a day or two and see if the problem
> > >> continues, if it does it is a heat issue.
> > >
> > > Unless I'm missing something, I don't follow the logic there at all.
> > >
> > > The system case needs to be in place along with all blocking plates etc for
> > > good airflow and the cooling fans to work. But taking off the side, how does
> > > that diagnose anything?
> > >

> >
> > It is a common practice to take the side off the case to test for temp
> > problems. This equalizes the temperature inside the case to the room
> > temperature, which is usually cooler. If the symptoms disappear with the
> > side off, then yes, it is a heat issue.

>
> Well, first, 'Mister' said if the problem CONTINUES it is a heat issue :(
>
> Secondly, it may be common practice, but I was taught it was 'bad' practice, as
> taking off the sides stops the fans working properly, so heat can accumulate
> around the cpu / video cards, not equalise as is commonly described. A fully
> enclosed system with the fans working properly will be more efficient at
> cooling the cpu than one with the sides off: therefore any conclusions drawn by
> taking off the sides could be erroneous. It may be counterintuitive, but the
> cpu temp will be less with sides on than sides off. It is the cooling effect of
> moving air, not the ambient temperature that is significant.



rdfedor@gmail.com 09-01-2006 02:06 AM

Re: System Diagnosis - Hardware Issue
 
The symptoms had mysteriously changed from what i said earlier to
straight reboots and lockups, but after hours to tedious
troubleshooting, replacing the graphics card, replacing the power
supply, dusting. I've eventually came to realisation that it's neither
of those problems and it's not overheating lol. After looking
elsewhere for the problem... i found out that this entire issue was
due to the need to re-seat (don't know howto spell the actually
computer term for it lol) the ram o.O lol. It actually maybe a bad
stick that i had in slot one cause i removed each stick one by one till
the last one was there. Each time it would restart when at some point
after entering windows. After replacing the last RAM stick with
another, it started working fine, so i moved the potentially bad stick
to the second slot and put the third stick back in and it seems to work
fine now lol.

So basically, if i come across the issue again, i know it's that RAM
stick.

Out of the years of experience building and troubleshooting my own
systems along with friends, i should have realized that it's almost
always the last thing you'd expect lol.

Thanks for everyones assistance :) Appreciate it.

Btw, I've also re-adjusted my air flow in my system lol. I had the
back and front fans blow in, and the side fan blow out so i changed it
so that the front blows in, the back blows out, and the side blows in
as well. That may actually keep my system cooler.

Thanks again :)

Mister wrote:
> On 31 Aug 2006 16:05:42 -0000, Fred the Ferret <anon@comments.header>
> wrote:
>
> >Hi Patty
> >
> >On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 09:16:51 -0400
> >Patty <patty@iainttellin.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On 31 Aug 2006 12:14:09 -0000, Fred the Ferret wrote:
> >>
> >> > On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 07:06:47 -0400
> >> > Mister <not_a_chance@this_email_address.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Take the side of the case off for a day or two and see if the problem
> >> >> continues, if it does it is a heat issue.
> >> >
> >> > Unless I'm missing something, I don't follow the logic there at all.
> >> >
> >> > The system case needs to be in place along with all blocking plates etc for
> >> > good airflow and the cooling fans to work. But taking off the side, how does
> >> > that diagnose anything?
> >> >
> >>
> >> It is a common practice to take the side off the case to test for temp
> >> problems. This equalizes the temperature inside the case to the room
> >> temperature, which is usually cooler. If the symptoms disappear with the
> >> side off, then yes, it is a heat issue.

> >
> >Well, first, 'Mister' said if the problem CONTINUES it is a heat issue :(
> >
> >Secondly, it may be common practice, but I was taught it was 'bad' practice, as
> >taking off the sides stops the fans working properly, so heat can accumulate
> >around the cpu / video cards, not equalise as is commonly described. A fully
> >enclosed system with the fans working properly will be more efficient at
> >cooling the cpu than one with the sides off: therefore any conclusions drawn by
> >taking off the sides could be erroneous. It may be counterintuitive, but the
> >cpu temp will be less with sides on than sides off. It is the cooling effect of
> >moving air, not the ambient temperature that is significant.
> >
> >

>
> Hi Fred the Ferret,
>
> Mister said:
> "Take the side of the case off for a day or two and see if the problem
> continues, if it does it is a heat issue."
>
> Sorry I missed "n't" on the word "does", meaning "doesn't"
>
> Correction:
> Take the side of the case off for a day or two and see if the problem
> continues, if it doesn't it is a heat issue.
>
> As far as "system case needs to be in place along with all blocking
> plates etc for good airflow and the cooling fans to work" that sounds
> like it is straight from the A+ hardware study section of a book and
> not from real world experience.
>
> Patty is correct in agreeing with me. In the real world, removing the
> covers will bring a computer's temperature down fairly fast.
>
> Please note, that if you remove the side cover and the temperature
> drops, thus causing the computer to work properly, there may be in
> issue with proper air flow inside the case when the cover is on, such
> as cables and cards restricting air flow. Ah ha... logical thinking
> will always win!



rdfedor@gmail.com 09-01-2006 02:56 AM

Re: System Diagnosis - Hardware Issue
 
Lol, it wasn't a hot stick, it was a bad stick. I just removed it from
my computer for misbehaving again lol. I'll let you know in a day or
so wether or not the problem is fixed lol.

Thanks,
Roger

Mister wrote:
> I think the lack of air flow through your system was causing the hot
> memory stick to jump out of your system to cool down.
> It's a good thing those side covers were on, it might have escaped! :)
>
> On 31 Aug 2006 19:06:33 -0700, rdfedor@gmail.com wrote:
>
> >The symptoms had mysteriously changed from what i said earlier to
> >straight reboots and lockups, but after hours to tedious
> >troubleshooting, replacing the graphics card, replacing the power
> >supply, dusting. I've eventually came to realisation that it's neither
> >of those problems and it's not overheating lol. After looking
> >elsewhere for the problem... i found out that this entire issue was
> >due to the need to re-seat (don't know howto spell the actually
> >computer term for it lol) the ram o.O lol. It actually maybe a bad
> >stick that i had in slot one cause i removed each stick one by one till
> >the last one was there. Each time it would restart when at some point
> >after entering windows. After replacing the last RAM stick with
> >another, it started working fine, so i moved the potentially bad stick
> >to the second slot and put the third stick back in and it seems to work
> >fine now lol.
> >
> >So basically, if i come across the issue again, i know it's that RAM
> >stick.
> >
> >Out of the years of experience building and troubleshooting my own
> >systems along with friends, i should have realized that it's almost
> >always the last thing you'd expect lol.
> >
> >Thanks for everyones assistance :) Appreciate it.
> >
> >Btw, I've also re-adjusted my air flow in my system lol. I had the
> >back and front fans blow in, and the side fan blow out so i changed it
> >so that the front blows in, the back blows out, and the side blows in
> >as well. That may actually keep my system cooler.
> >
> >Thanks again :)
> >
> >Mister wrote:
> >> On 31 Aug 2006 16:05:42 -0000, Fred the Ferret <anon@comments.header>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Hi Patty
> >> >
> >> >On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 09:16:51 -0400
> >> >Patty <patty@iainttellin.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> On 31 Aug 2006 12:14:09 -0000, Fred the Ferret wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 07:06:47 -0400
> >> >> > Mister <not_a_chance@this_email_address.com> wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> Take the side of the case off for a day or two and see if the problem
> >> >> >> continues, if it does it is a heat issue.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Unless I'm missing something, I don't follow the logic there at all.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > The system case needs to be in place along with all blocking plates etc for
> >> >> > good airflow and the cooling fans to work. But taking off the side, how does
> >> >> > that diagnose anything?
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> It is a common practice to take the side off the case to test for temp
> >> >> problems. This equalizes the temperature inside the case to the room
> >> >> temperature, which is usually cooler. If the symptoms disappear with the
> >> >> side off, then yes, it is a heat issue.
> >> >
> >> >Well, first, 'Mister' said if the problem CONTINUES it is a heat issue :(
> >> >
> >> >Secondly, it may be common practice, but I was taught it was 'bad' practice, as
> >> >taking off the sides stops the fans working properly, so heat can accumulate
> >> >around the cpu / video cards, not equalise as is commonly described. A fully
> >> >enclosed system with the fans working properly will be more efficient at
> >> >cooling the cpu than one with the sides off: therefore any conclusions drawn by
> >> >taking off the sides could be erroneous. It may be counterintuitive, but the
> >> >cpu temp will be less with sides on than sides off. It is the cooling effect of
> >> >moving air, not the ambient temperature that is significant.
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> Hi Fred the Ferret,
> >>
> >> Mister said:
> >> "Take the side of the case off for a day or two and see if the problem
> >> continues, if it does it is a heat issue."
> >>
> >> Sorry I missed "n't" on the word "does", meaning "doesn't"
> >>
> >> Correction:
> >> Take the side of the case off for a day or two and see if the problem
> >> continues, if it doesn't it is a heat issue.
> >>
> >> As far as "system case needs to be in place along with all blocking
> >> plates etc for good airflow and the cooling fans to work" that sounds
> >> like it is straight from the A+ hardware study section of a book and
> >> not from real world experience.
> >>
> >> Patty is correct in agreeing with me. In the real world, removing the
> >> covers will bring a computer's temperature down fairly fast.
> >>
> >> Please note, that if you remove the side cover and the temperature
> >> drops, thus causing the computer to work properly, there may be in
> >> issue with proper air flow inside the case when the cover is on, such
> >> as cables and cards restricting air flow. Ah ha... logical thinking
> >> will always win!



Patty 09-01-2006 03:01 AM

Re: System Diagnosis - Hardware Issue
 
On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 21:43:54 -0400, Mister wrote:

> On 31 Aug 2006 16:05:42 -0000, Fred the Ferret <anon@comments.header>
> wrote:
>


> Hi Fred the Ferret,
>
> Mister said:
> "Take the side of the case off for a day or two and see if the problem
> continues, if it does it is a heat issue."
>
> Sorry I missed "n't" on the word "does", meaning "doesn't"
>
> Correction:
> Take the side of the case off for a day or two and see if the problem
> continues, if it doesn't it is a heat issue.
>
> As far as "system case needs to be in place along with all blocking
> plates etc for good airflow and the cooling fans to work" that sounds
> like it is straight from the A+ hardware study section of a book and
> not from real world experience.
>
> Patty is correct in agreeing with me. In the real world, removing the
> covers will bring a computer's temperature down fairly fast.
>
> Please note, that if you remove the side cover and the temperature
> drops, thus causing the computer to work properly, there may be in
> issue with proper air flow inside the case when the cover is on, such
> as cables and cards restricting air flow. Ah ha... logical thinking
> will always win!


I believe Mister is correct. The necessity of fans and good airflow has to
do with the system being in a small closed box. If there is improper
airflow, the heat will build up within the case to a dangerous level. The
A+ people tell you that leaving a slot cover off the case will cause the
system to overheat because it will affect the airflow and this is probably
true. In a closed up case. In a closed box, the heat will build up
because it has nowhere to go and you need good airflow to dissipate it.
If, however, the system is not in a small, completely enclosed box, the
heat will have nowhere to build up and will dissipate on its own into the
room.

So, Fred, if you're in the process of building a new system, tell me that
each time you add a new component you hurry up and put the side and front
back on your case before you test to see if it works. Heck, I've had
motherboards and CPUs running on a table testing them outside of a case
without any heat problems with the CPU. In fact, I once saw a system that
was built just in a frame with no sides at all. System ran fine with no
heat problems.

Patty

rdfedor@gmail.com 09-01-2006 02:42 PM

Re: System Diagnosis - Hardware Issue
 
I'd have to agree, having an A+ ceritification doesn't mean that you
know everything about problems because i've taken the class in
highschool and computers are a hobby for me. Having an A+ Cerification
just means you have the ability to learn and understand what problems
are and howto solve them. Not every problem has a clear cut solution,
in this example for instance, it started out as a graphics issue, but
then wen't to the reboots later on. With the thinking we've been doing
here, we wouldn't have thought that the RAM would have been the problem
for a graphics problem like this lol. It wasn't till the instant
reboots started that we started suspecting RAM. Air flow is an
important factor because if the CPU overheats or the GPU, it would have
caused the same symptoms, but if it was the CPU, the computer would
have frozen on reboot and make the beeping noises because of
overheating (had experience with that cause my CPU fan went out w/o me
knowing it lol).

Just a little update also, i left my computer on overnight and woke up
this morning to where i left it the night before. So i'll be sending
an RMA to kingston since they have a lifetime warranty =)

Thanks,
Roger

Fred the Ferret wrote:
> On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 23:01:52 -0400
> Patty <patty@iainttellin.com> wrote:
>
>
> > I believe Mister is correct.

>
> In Message-ID: <J3IOQIK338960.3431597222@twistycreek.com>
> Fred the Ferret wrote:
>
> >It could even be a memory problem, so the advice:

>
> >> If that does not do anything, replace the power supply.

>
> >is perhaps a bit simplistic.

>
>
> Yah-boo!
>
>
> I hear what everyone is saying, and the missing ' n't ' from Mister's post did
> have me puzzled. I was really wanting to make the point that just removing the
> sides might lead to misdiagnoses, and I don't think I was wrong in this 'case'
> (pun intended). I don't doubt that some have you have much more system-building
> experience than me. But I have had experience of dodgy RAM, so the above was
> no 'shot in the dark' or something I read in an A+ book.




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