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Training Guidance/Direction
Hello everyone:
I have to tell you, I am coming into this world of certification pretty cold (or as they say nowadays a "newbie"), so I apologize if you all are having to reanswer the same questions on my behalf. I have read through many many post and have a good feel, but since I have to offer up the internet now to the others in my family, I am going to go ahead and begin asking you guys my questions. Thanks in advance. 1) I notice that their seems to be two tracks of two tracks so to speak (C# and VB) and (ASP.NET or Windows Form). Since I am totally new, what combination is best? My experience is only writing code in VBA in Microsoft Access. My department really doesn't use any web-based application only Microsoft Access. I bought a book on C# and I can do simple stuff in it. I also own Visual Studio 2003. Anyway, I always find myself being far more productive with VBA in Access. Although everything is type enforced in C# it just seems so slow going in writing anything productive quickly (although does seem to be an elegant and concise language). I know I'm spoiled and VBA is probably a very sloppy language, but its all I have experience in. Anyway, any suggestions or input for me? Given what I've written it probably seems like VB.NET using Windows Form as my choice, but I'm thinking heading towards C# under the ASP.NET umbrella just because I think its more marketable skills to have. Also, I just feel that ASP.NET is pretty darn complicated (or so very different than Windows Form programming using VBA) and if I can master that, then Windows Form should be easier to digest. And given all the great things I've heard about C#, will it eventually become the dominant language? Will Microsoft Access eventually have C# in it? Wow, sorry...too many questions...but any comments will be great. Thanks. 2) I've read much about the Amit Kalani books and do plan on purchasing it. All then I will have is that book, my Visual Studio 2003, my Windows XP Pro (which includes the IIS Server I believe), and my .NET SDK and stuff. Now outside of my time and dedication, do I need anything else to begin my studies? I will probably ask again later as to what is the best practice test to take, but I have enough info from the various posts to make my decision on using Transcender, etc. For now, as far as studies go, would I be good with that Amit Kalani book? Or do I need to first get one of those "Teach Yourself ... in 21 Days" book? Anyway, thanks everyone...sorry if it is a bunch of repeats, but I did try to read as many posts as I could before I had to get off the internet. Goodnight, Amar |
Training Guidance/Direction
Hope this will help:
Answers: 1) For .NET it doesn't matter which language you use, that's the whole point of .NET; you can develop what you want in (almost) any language as long as you develop on Microsoft stuff ;-). So to speak: .NET is language independent where as J2EE is platform independent. So the choice between C# and VB.NET is irrelevant. 2) I use Microsoft Press which is not really good. I also have the transcenders which are good. You can review your answers and get a link to MSDN which immidiately takes us to the one thing you will need: MSDN. As I've heard everywhere Amit's book is the best (maybe for VB it could be another) So you're OK there. good luck 2 you. V. >-----Original Message----- >Hello everyone: > >I have to tell you, I am coming into this world of certification pretty cold >(or as they say nowadays a "newbie"), so I apologize if you all are having >to reanswer the same questions on my behalf. I have read through many many >post and have a good feel, but since I have to offer up the internet now to >the others in my family, I am going to go ahead and begin asking you guys my >questions. Thanks in advance. > >1) I notice that their seems to be two tracks of two tracks so to speak (C# >and VB) and (ASP.NET or Windows Form). Since I am totally new, what >combination is best? My experience is only writing code in VBA in Microsoft >Access. My department really doesn't use any web-based application only >Microsoft Access. I bought a book on C# and I can do simple stuff in it. I >also own Visual Studio 2003. Anyway, I always find myself being far more >productive with VBA in Access. Although everything is type enforced in C# >it just seems so slow going in writing anything productive quickly (although >does seem to be an elegant and concise language). I know I'm spoiled and >VBA is probably a very sloppy language, but its all I have experience in. >Anyway, any suggestions or input for me? Given what I've written it >probably seems like VB.NET using Windows Form as my choice, but I'm thinking >heading towards C# under the ASP.NET umbrella just because I think its more >marketable skills to have. Also, I just feel that ASP.NET is pretty darn >complicated (or so very different than Windows Form programming using VBA) >and if I can master that, then Windows Form should be easier to digest. And >given all the great things I've heard about C#, will it eventually become >the dominant language? Will Microsoft Access eventually have C# in it? >Wow, sorry...too many questions...but any comments will be great. Thanks. > >2) I've read much about the Amit Kalani books and do plan on purchasing it. >All then I will have is that book, my Visual Studio 2003, my Windows XP Pro >(which includes the IIS Server I believe), and my .NET SDK and stuff. Now >outside of my time and dedication, do I need anything else to begin my >studies? I will probably ask again later as to what is the best practice >test to take, but I have enough info from the various posts to make my >decision on using Transcender, etc. For now, as far as studies go, would I >be good with that Amit Kalani book? Or do I need to first get one of those >"Teach Yourself ... in 21 Days" book? > >Anyway, thanks everyone...sorry if it is a bunch of repeats, but I did try >to read as many posts as I could before I had to get off the internet. > >Goodnight, >Amar > > >. > |
Re: Training Guidance/Direction
I think the most important part in here is learning the technology.
In my opinion, certification is secundary, it's just for assure that you learned the technology. So, if you are not confident enough I recommend you books to learn C#, ADO.NET and VS.NET, and not directly kalanis books for example, wich is focused mainly on exam certification topics. As for language, it is really independent, but, c# is the default language, and it implements all capabilities of CLS(stuff that not all languagem have). "Amar Kapadia" <AmarKapadia@msn.com> escreveu na mensagem news:OHB$TycoEHA.132@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl... Hello everyone: I have to tell you, I am coming into this world of certification pretty cold (or as they say nowadays a "newbie"), so I apologize if you all are having to reanswer the same questions on my behalf. I have read through many many post and have a good feel, but since I have to offer up the internet now to the others in my family, I am going to go ahead and begin asking you guys my questions. Thanks in advance. 1) I notice that their seems to be two tracks of two tracks so to speak (C# and VB) and (ASP.NET or Windows Form). Since I am totally new, what combination is best? My experience is only writing code in VBA in Microsoft Access. My department really doesn't use any web-based application only Microsoft Access. I bought a book on C# and I can do simple stuff in it. I also own Visual Studio 2003. Anyway, I always find myself being far more productive with VBA in Access. Although everything is type enforced in C# it just seems so slow going in writing anything productive quickly (although does seem to be an elegant and concise language). I know I'm spoiled and VBA is probably a very sloppy language, but its all I have experience in. Anyway, any suggestions or input for me? Given what I've written it probably seems like VB.NET using Windows Form as my choice, but I'm thinking heading towards C# under the ASP.NET umbrella just because I think its more marketable skills to have. Also, I just feel that ASP.NET is pretty darn complicated (or so very different than Windows Form programming using VBA) and if I can master that, then Windows Form should be easier to digest. And given all the great things I've heard about C#, will it eventually become the dominant language? Will Microsoft Access eventually have C# in it? Wow, sorry...too many questions...but any comments will be great. Thanks. 2) I've read much about the Amit Kalani books and do plan on purchasing it. All then I will have is that book, my Visual Studio 2003, my Windows XP Pro (which includes the IIS Server I believe), and my .NET SDK and stuff. Now outside of my time and dedication, do I need anything else to begin my studies? I will probably ask again later as to what is the best practice test to take, but I have enough info from the various posts to make my decision on using Transcender, etc. For now, as far as studies go, would I be good with that Amit Kalani book? Or do I need to first get one of those "Teach Yourself ... in 21 Days" book? Anyway, thanks everyone...sorry if it is a bunch of repeats, but I did try to read as many posts as I could before I had to get off the internet. Goodnight, Amar |
Re: Training Guidance/Direction
I highly recommend Amit Kalani's books. But if you really want to excel and
understand the topics I suggest you do some tutorials or get a book on Object Oriented Programming first. You will understand why things are done a certain way. You will also need SQL Server 2000 or MSDE(Free). If you can get the SQL Server so that you'll also get the Client Tools like Query Analyzer and Enterprise Manager which come in handy. Good luck! -Frank "Amar Kapadia" <AmarKapadia@msn.com> wrote in message news:OHB$TycoEHA.132@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl... > Hello everyone: > > I have to tell you, I am coming into this world of certification pretty cold > (or as they say nowadays a "newbie"), so I apologize if you all are having > to reanswer the same questions on my behalf. I have read through many many > post and have a good feel, but since I have to offer up the internet now to > the others in my family, I am going to go ahead and begin asking you guys my > questions. Thanks in advance. > > 1) I notice that their seems to be two tracks of two tracks so to speak (C# > and VB) and (ASP.NET or Windows Form). Since I am totally new, what > combination is best? My experience is only writing code in VBA in Microsoft > Access. My department really doesn't use any web-based application only > Microsoft Access. I bought a book on C# and I can do simple stuff in it. I > also own Visual Studio 2003. Anyway, I always find myself being far more > productive with VBA in Access. Although everything is type enforced in C# > it just seems so slow going in writing anything productive quickly (although > does seem to be an elegant and concise language). I know I'm spoiled and > VBA is probably a very sloppy language, but its all I have experience in. > Anyway, any suggestions or input for me? Given what I've written it > probably seems like VB.NET using Windows Form as my choice, but I'm thinking > heading towards C# under the ASP.NET umbrella just because I think its more > marketable skills to have. Also, I just feel that ASP.NET is pretty darn > complicated (or so very different than Windows Form programming using VBA) > and if I can master that, then Windows Form should be easier to digest. And > given all the great things I've heard about C#, will it eventually become > the dominant language? Will Microsoft Access eventually have C# in it? > Wow, sorry...too many questions...but any comments will be great. Thanks. > > 2) I've read much about the Amit Kalani books and do plan on purchasing it. > All then I will have is that book, my Visual Studio 2003, my Windows XP Pro > (which includes the IIS Server I believe), and my .NET SDK and stuff. Now > outside of my time and dedication, do I need anything else to begin my > studies? I will probably ask again later as to what is the best practice > test to take, but I have enough info from the various posts to make my > decision on using Transcender, etc. For now, as far as studies go, would I > be good with that Amit Kalani book? Or do I need to first get one of those > "Teach Yourself ... in 21 Days" book? > > Anyway, thanks everyone...sorry if it is a bunch of repeats, but I did try > to read as many posts as I could before I had to get off the internet. > > Goodnight, > Amar > > |
Re: Training Guidance/Direction
Hi Henry,
I'm confused. What makes C# the "default" language? -- Cindy Winegarden MCSD, Microsoft Visual FoxPro MVP cindy.winegarden@mvps.org www.cindywinegarden.com "Henry" <jompas@jompas.com> wrote in message news:u189b8hoEHA.3896@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl... As for language, it is really independent, but, c# is the default language, and it implements all capabilities of CLS(stuff that not all languagem have). |
Re : Training Guidance/Direction
If you decide to do the vb.net track of MCAD, foll. books are the best (all by Mike Gunderloy) 70-305 : http://tinyurl.com/56cmr 70-306 : http://tinyurl.com/5hapf 70-310 : http://tinyurl.com/52oav Errata : http://www.larkware.com/TGErrata.txt For C# track of MCAD, stick with Amit Kalani's books. They are the absolute best ! C# track 70-315 : http://tinyurl.com/4rhh7 70-316 : http://tinyurl.com/64coq 70-320 : http://tinyurl.com/6oeo4 The choice of language is largely one's personal preference, sometimes dictated by work. Don't believe anyone who says "x language is better than y". It is not and it is not going to be ! Of course, along with certification books, the foll. 2 are recommended as well ! ADO.Net Book : http://tinyurl.com/5fad9 Asp.net Unleashed : http://tinyurl.com/6ch54 >-----Original Message----- >Hello everyone: > >I have to tell you, I am coming into this world of certification pretty cold >(or as they say nowadays a "newbie"), so I apologize if you all are having >to reanswer the same questions on my behalf. I have read through many many >post and have a good feel, but since I have to offer up the internet now to >the others in my family, I am going to go ahead and begin asking you guys my >questions. Thanks in advance. > >1) I notice that their seems to be two tracks of two tracks so to speak (C# >and VB) and (ASP.NET or Windows Form). Since I am totally new, what >combination is best? My experience is only writing code in VBA in Microsoft >Access. My department really doesn't use any web-based application only >Microsoft Access. I bought a book on C# and I can do simple stuff in it. I >also own Visual Studio 2003. Anyway, I always find myself being far more >productive with VBA in Access. Although everything is type enforced in C# >it just seems so slow going in writing anything productive quickly (although >does seem to be an elegant and concise language). I know I'm spoiled and >VBA is probably a very sloppy language, but its all I have experience in. >Anyway, any suggestions or input for me? Given what I've written it >probably seems like VB.NET using Windows Form as my choice, but I'm thinking >heading towards C# under the ASP.NET umbrella just because I think its more >marketable skills to have. Also, I just feel that ASP.NET is pretty darn >complicated (or so very different than Windows Form programming using VBA) >and if I can master that, then Windows Form should be easier to digest. And >given all the great things I've heard about C#, will it eventually become >the dominant language? Will Microsoft Access eventually have C# in it? >Wow, sorry...too many questions...but any comments will be great. Thanks. > >2) I've read much about the Amit Kalani books and do plan on purchasing it. >All then I will have is that book, my Visual Studio 2003, my Windows XP Pro >(which includes the IIS Server I believe), and my .NET SDK and stuff. Now >outside of my time and dedication, do I need anything else to begin my >studies? I will probably ask again later as to what is the best practice >test to take, but I have enough info from the various posts to make my >decision on using Transcender, etc. For now, as far as studies go, would I >be good with that Amit Kalani book? Or do I need to first get one of those >"Teach Yourself ... in 21 Days" book? > >Anyway, thanks everyone...sorry if it is a bunch of repeats, but I did try >to read as many posts as I could before I had to get off the internet. > >Goodnight, >Amar > > >. > |
Re: Training Guidance/Direction
V. Thanks. Yes I had forgotten about the the fact that .NET allows any
language. Looks like another vote for Amit books. "V." <anonymous@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message news:2d4401c4a20a$2e797160$a601280a@phx.gbl... > Hope this will help: > Answers: > 1) For .NET it doesn't matter which language you use, > that's the whole point of .NET; you can develop what you > want in (almost) any language as long as you develop on > Microsoft stuff ;-). So to speak: .NET is language > independent where as J2EE is platform independent. So > the choice between C# and VB.NET is irrelevant. > 2) I use Microsoft Press which is not really good. I > also have the transcenders which are good. You can > review your answers and get a link to MSDN which > immidiately takes us to the one thing you will need: MSDN. > As I've heard everywhere Amit's book is the best (maybe > for VB it could be another) So you're OK there. > > good luck 2 you. > > V. > >>-----Original Message----- >>Hello everyone: >> >>I have to tell you, I am coming into this world of > certification pretty cold >>(or as they say nowadays a "newbie"), so I apologize if > you all are having >>to reanswer the same questions on my behalf. I have > read through many many >>post and have a good feel, but since I have to offer up > the internet now to >>the others in my family, I am going to go ahead and > begin asking you guys my >>questions. Thanks in advance. >> >>1) I notice that their seems to be two tracks of two > tracks so to speak (C# >>and VB) and (ASP.NET or Windows Form). Since I am > totally new, what >>combination is best? My experience is only writing code > in VBA in Microsoft >>Access. My department really doesn't use any web-based > application only >>Microsoft Access. I bought a book on C# and I can do > simple stuff in it. I >>also own Visual Studio 2003. Anyway, I always find > myself being far more >>productive with VBA in Access. Although everything is > type enforced in C# >>it just seems so slow going in writing anything > productive quickly (although >>does seem to be an elegant and concise language). I > know I'm spoiled and >>VBA is probably a very sloppy language, but its all I > have experience in. >>Anyway, any suggestions or input for me? Given what > I've written it >>probably seems like VB.NET using Windows Form as my > choice, but I'm thinking >>heading towards C# under the ASP.NET umbrella just > because I think its more >>marketable skills to have. Also, I just feel that > ASP.NET is pretty darn >>complicated (or so very different than Windows Form > programming using VBA) >>and if I can master that, then Windows Form should be > easier to digest. And >>given all the great things I've heard about C#, will it > eventually become >>the dominant language? Will Microsoft Access eventually > have C# in it? >>Wow, sorry...too many questions...but any comments will > be great. Thanks. >> >>2) I've read much about the Amit Kalani books and do > plan on purchasing it. >>All then I will have is that book, my Visual Studio > 2003, my Windows XP Pro >>(which includes the IIS Server I believe), and my .NET > SDK and stuff. Now >>outside of my time and dedication, do I need anything > else to begin my >>studies? I will probably ask again later as to what is > the best practice >>test to take, but I have enough info from the various > posts to make my >>decision on using Transcender, etc. For now, as far as > studies go, would I >>be good with that Amit Kalani book? Or do I need to > first get one of those >>"Teach Yourself ... in 21 Days" book? >> >>Anyway, thanks everyone...sorry if it is a bunch of > repeats, but I did try >>to read as many posts as I could before I had to get off > the internet. >> >>Goodnight, >>Amar >> >> >>. >> |
Re: Training Guidance/Direction
Excellent tips. Thanks.
"Frank Mamone" <frankmnospam@canada.com> wrote in message news:ew61injoEHA.2304@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl... >I highly recommend Amit Kalani's books. But if you really want to excel and > understand the topics I suggest you do some tutorials or get a book on > Object Oriented Programming first. You will understand why things are done > a > certain way. > > You will also need SQL Server 2000 or MSDE(Free). If you can get the SQL > Server so that you'll also get the Client Tools like Query Analyzer and > Enterprise Manager which come in handy. > > Good luck! > > -Frank > > > "Amar Kapadia" <AmarKapadia@msn.com> wrote in message > news:OHB$TycoEHA.132@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl... >> Hello everyone: >> >> I have to tell you, I am coming into this world of certification pretty > cold >> (or as they say nowadays a "newbie"), so I apologize if you all are >> having >> to reanswer the same questions on my behalf. I have read through many > many >> post and have a good feel, but since I have to offer up the internet now > to >> the others in my family, I am going to go ahead and begin asking you guys > my >> questions. Thanks in advance. >> >> 1) I notice that their seems to be two tracks of two tracks so to speak > (C# >> and VB) and (ASP.NET or Windows Form). Since I am totally new, what >> combination is best? My experience is only writing code in VBA in > Microsoft >> Access. My department really doesn't use any web-based application only >> Microsoft Access. I bought a book on C# and I can do simple stuff in it. > I >> also own Visual Studio 2003. Anyway, I always find myself being far more >> productive with VBA in Access. Although everything is type enforced in >> C# >> it just seems so slow going in writing anything productive quickly > (although >> does seem to be an elegant and concise language). I know I'm spoiled and >> VBA is probably a very sloppy language, but its all I have experience in. >> Anyway, any suggestions or input for me? Given what I've written it >> probably seems like VB.NET using Windows Form as my choice, but I'm > thinking >> heading towards C# under the ASP.NET umbrella just because I think its > more >> marketable skills to have. Also, I just feel that ASP.NET is pretty darn >> complicated (or so very different than Windows Form programming using >> VBA) >> and if I can master that, then Windows Form should be easier to digest. > And >> given all the great things I've heard about C#, will it eventually become >> the dominant language? Will Microsoft Access eventually have C# in it? >> Wow, sorry...too many questions...but any comments will be great. >> Thanks. >> >> 2) I've read much about the Amit Kalani books and do plan on purchasing > it. >> All then I will have is that book, my Visual Studio 2003, my Windows XP > Pro >> (which includes the IIS Server I believe), and my .NET SDK and stuff. >> Now >> outside of my time and dedication, do I need anything else to begin my >> studies? I will probably ask again later as to what is the best practice >> test to take, but I have enough info from the various posts to make my >> decision on using Transcender, etc. For now, as far as studies go, would > I >> be good with that Amit Kalani book? Or do I need to first get one of > those >> "Teach Yourself ... in 21 Days" book? >> >> Anyway, thanks everyone...sorry if it is a bunch of repeats, but I did >> try >> to read as many posts as I could before I had to get off the internet. >> >> Goodnight, >> Amar >> >> > > |
Re: Training Guidance/Direction
Thanks Raja. I'll keep your listing with all the links.
"Raja" <anonymous@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message news:347c01c4a27e$12427220$a601280a@phx.gbl... > > If you decide to do the vb.net track of MCAD, foll. books > are the best (all by Mike Gunderloy) > 70-305 : http://tinyurl.com/56cmr > 70-306 : http://tinyurl.com/5hapf > 70-310 : http://tinyurl.com/52oav > Errata : http://www.larkware.com/TGErrata.txt > > For C# track of MCAD, stick with Amit Kalani's books. > They are the absolute best ! > C# track > 70-315 : http://tinyurl.com/4rhh7 > 70-316 : http://tinyurl.com/64coq > 70-320 : http://tinyurl.com/6oeo4 > > The choice of language is largely one's personal > preference, sometimes dictated by work. Don't believe > anyone who says "x language is better than y". It is not > and it is not going to be ! > > Of course, along with certification books, the foll. 2 > are recommended as well ! > ADO.Net Book : http://tinyurl.com/5fad9 > Asp.net Unleashed : http://tinyurl.com/6ch54 > >>-----Original Message----- >>Hello everyone: >> >>I have to tell you, I am coming into this world of > certification pretty cold >>(or as they say nowadays a "newbie"), so I apologize if > you all are having >>to reanswer the same questions on my behalf. I have > read through many many >>post and have a good feel, but since I have to offer up > the internet now to >>the others in my family, I am going to go ahead and > begin asking you guys my >>questions. Thanks in advance. >> >>1) I notice that their seems to be two tracks of two > tracks so to speak (C# >>and VB) and (ASP.NET or Windows Form). Since I am > totally new, what >>combination is best? My experience is only writing code > in VBA in Microsoft >>Access. My department really doesn't use any web-based > application only >>Microsoft Access. I bought a book on C# and I can do > simple stuff in it. I >>also own Visual Studio 2003. Anyway, I always find > myself being far more >>productive with VBA in Access. Although everything is > type enforced in C# >>it just seems so slow going in writing anything > productive quickly (although >>does seem to be an elegant and concise language). I > know I'm spoiled and >>VBA is probably a very sloppy language, but its all I > have experience in. >>Anyway, any suggestions or input for me? Given what > I've written it >>probably seems like VB.NET using Windows Form as my > choice, but I'm thinking >>heading towards C# under the ASP.NET umbrella just > because I think its more >>marketable skills to have. Also, I just feel that > ASP.NET is pretty darn >>complicated (or so very different than Windows Form > programming using VBA) >>and if I can master that, then Windows Form should be > easier to digest. And >>given all the great things I've heard about C#, will it > eventually become >>the dominant language? Will Microsoft Access eventually > have C# in it? >>Wow, sorry...too many questions...but any comments will > be great. Thanks. >> >>2) I've read much about the Amit Kalani books and do > plan on purchasing it. >>All then I will have is that book, my Visual Studio > 2003, my Windows XP Pro >>(which includes the IIS Server I believe), and my .NET > SDK and stuff. Now >>outside of my time and dedication, do I need anything > else to begin my >>studies? I will probably ask again later as to what is > the best practice >>test to take, but I have enough info from the various > posts to make my >>decision on using Transcender, etc. For now, as far as > studies go, would I >>be good with that Amit Kalani book? Or do I need to > first get one of those >>"Teach Yourself ... in 21 Days" book? >> >>Anyway, thanks everyone...sorry if it is a bunch of > repeats, but I did try >>to read as many posts as I could before I had to get off > the internet. >> >>Goodnight, >>Amar >> >> >>. >> |
Re: Training Guidance/Direction
Just an observation from reading posts over a period of some time but as
soon as someone places C# over other languages, ya get mighty defensive. I understand that you might feel the need to "correct" people back into shape but the reality is that C# is new, exciting, powerful and mysterious. Having said that, it's human nature to want to make it appear to be more important than other languages when in fact it may not be. Ultimately, it's an opinion but it's hard to get excited over "anything-other-than-C#.net" since as I stated, C# is new and is getting the most attention. "Cindy Winegarden" <cindy.winegarden@mvps.org> wrote in message news:%23UM4dlloEHA.4032@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl... > Hi Henry, > > I'm confused. What makes C# the "default" language? > > -- > Cindy Winegarden MCSD, Microsoft Visual FoxPro MVP > cindy.winegarden@mvps.org www.cindywinegarden.com > > > "Henry" <jompas@jompas.com> wrote in message > news:u189b8hoEHA.3896@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl... > As for language, it is really independent, but, c# is the default language, > and it implements all capabilities of CLS(stuff that not all languagem > have). > > > |
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