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-   -   App server with mail server and DB (http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/t623945-app-server-with-mail-server-and-db.html)

Naveen Kumar 07-05-2008 07:09 PM

App server with mail server and DB
 

Is there any application server which also has a mail server and a
decent db embedded with it.

Why not to have a server of this type in a company because it will
have low maintenance and great level of integration. Server
portability OS level can also be achieved on that. Then why not to
have something of this sort ??


Robert Klemme 07-05-2008 07:30 PM

Re: App server with mail server and DB
 
On 05.07.2008 21:09, Naveen Kumar wrote:
> Is there any application server which also has a mail server and a
> decent db embedded with it.
>
> Why not to have a server of this type in a company because it will
> have low maintenance and great level of integration.


Low maintenance for this is a myth. A mail server alone can be quite a
complex beast, same for application servers etc.

> Server
> portability OS level can also be achieved on that. Then why not to
> have something of this sort ??


What do you need a mail server on an application server? Usually there
is already a mail server in any corporate network which can be used
easily from any Java app server product.

A more general notice: if you lump all these on a single box then your
mail goes down if your application server breaks and vice versa.
Separation of critical systems is a good idea to increase robustness of
your business.

Having said that, there is nothing that stops you from throwing all of
them on a single Linux, BSD, Solaris or even Windows box. Btw, I
believe Microsoft is already offering something like this ("small
business server"). But I doubt you will find something that "just
works" with zero maintenance overhead.

Cheers

robert

Naveen Kumar 07-05-2008 08:18 PM

Re: App server with mail server and DB
 
On Jul 6, 12:30 am, Robert Klemme <shortcut...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> On 05.07.2008 21:09, Naveen Kumar wrote:
>
> > Is there any application server which also has a mail server and a
> > decent db embedded with it.

>
> > Why not to have a server of this type in a company because it will
> > have low maintenance and great level of integration.

>
> Low maintenance for this is a myth. A mail server alone can be quite a
> complex beast, same for application servers etc.


Well, isnt this dependent on our code. Say for example Tomcat, its the
best of app server which i have seen with no problem at all. It
depends on how we write our code, isnt it? Mail server, well i am not
comparing one with tht of Qmail, but decent enough with absolutely no
breakdown at all. Tht should be good enough to work on.


>
> > Server
> > portability OS level can also be achieved on that. Then why not to
> > have something of this sort ??

>
> What do you need a mail server on an application server? Usually there
> is already a mail server in any corporate network which can be used
> easily from any Java app server product.


I am talking about removing that mail server as tht needs opne more
admin who has knowledge on mail server rather than java knowledge. In
our case, a single java guy can handle it.

>
> A more general notice: if you lump all these on a single box then your
> mail goes down if your application server breaks and vice versa.
> Separation of critical systems is a good idea to increase robustness of
> your business.



Absolutely true, but something has to sacrificed for smthg else :(
>
> Having said that, there is nothing that stops you from throwing all of
> them on a single Linux, BSD, Solaris or even Windows box. Btw, I
> believe Microsoft is already offering something like this ("small
> business server"). But I doubt you will find something that "just
> works" with zero maintenance overhead.



Yeah. microsoft does but its paid software. Havent seen anythg from
java open source side. Or Even Lotus Notes from IBM. Its again a heavy
weight component built on java.


>
> Cheers
>
> robert



Arne Vajh°j 07-05-2008 09:01 PM

Re: App server with mail server and DB
 
Naveen Kumar wrote:
> Is there any application server which also has a mail server and a
> decent db embedded with it.


app server, mail server and database are distinct software. You can
get a database than can run inside the app server (HSQLDB etc.). In
theory a mail server could also run inside the app server, but I am
not aware of any that does.

> Why not to have a server of this type in a company because it will
> have low maintenance and great level of integration. Server
> portability OS level can also be achieved on that. Then why not to
> have something of this sort ??


Most would prefer to get the best app server, the best mail server
and the best database (best depends on their specific requirements)
instead of getting a fixed bundle.

And the model running them as 3 separate apps are easier to scale
because:
- it is always possible to split the 3 apps on up to 3 servers with
one app per server
- app servers usually use a load sharing model while database use
a failover model (exception is Oracle RAC) which can create
problems if trying to run the same app+db combo on multiple
servers

Arne

Arne Vajh°j 07-05-2008 09:08 PM

Re: App server with mail server and DB
 
Robert Klemme wrote:
> On 05.07.2008 21:09, Naveen Kumar wrote:
>> Is there any application server which also has a mail server and a
>> decent db embedded with it.
>>
>> Why not to have a server of this type in a company because it will
>> have low maintenance and great level of integration.

>
> Low maintenance for this is a myth. A mail server alone can be quite a
> complex beast, same for application servers etc.


Mail servers are often a PITA.

App servers are usually not that bad.

>> Server
>> portability OS level can also be achieved on that. Then why not to
>> have something of this sort ??

>
> What do you need a mail server on an application server? Usually there
> is already a mail server in any corporate network which can be used
> easily from any Java app server product.


That a server already exist is not really an argument. Server
consolidation happen all the time.

> A more general notice: if you lump all these on a single box then your
> mail goes down if your application server breaks and vice versa.
> Separation of critical systems is a good idea to increase robustness of
> your business.


App server can isolate the apps running inside it.

But mail servers and databases just don't fit very well inside an
app server.

Arne

Arne Vajh°j 07-05-2008 09:10 PM

Re: App server with mail server and DB
 
Naveen Kumar wrote:
> On Jul 6, 12:30 am, Robert Klemme <shortcut...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> On 05.07.2008 21:09, Naveen Kumar wrote:
>>> Is there any application server which also has a mail server and a
>>> decent db embedded with it.
>>> Why not to have a server of this type in a company because it will
>>> have low maintenance and great level of integration.

>> Low maintenance for this is a myth. A mail server alone can be quite a
>> complex beast, same for application servers etc.

>
> Well, isnt this dependent on our code. Say for example Tomcat, its the
> best of app server which i have seen with no problem at all. It
> depends on how we write our code, isnt it?


Tomcat is a fine product.

But you can find problems and work with that as well. A lot of those are
app related but some are about the server itself.

Arne

Robert Klemme 07-06-2008 07:16 AM

Re: App server with mail server and DB
 
On 05.07.2008 22:18, Naveen Kumar wrote:
> On Jul 6, 12:30 am, Robert Klemme <shortcut...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> On 05.07.2008 21:09, Naveen Kumar wrote:
>>
>>> Is there any application server which also has a mail server and a
>>> decent db embedded with it.
>>> Why not to have a server of this type in a company because it will
>>> have low maintenance and great level of integration.

>> Low maintenance for this is a myth. A mail server alone can be quite a
>> complex beast, same for application servers etc.

>
> Well, isnt this dependent on our code. Say for example Tomcat, its the
> best of app server which i have seen with no problem at all.


According to usual standards Tomcat is not an application server. It's
a web and servlet container. An application server usually has more
components (TX manager, load balancing etc.).

> It depends on how we write our code, isnt it?


Well, there are complex problems that make software complicated because
the issue it has to deal with is. Sometimes the software is usable
sometimes not.

> Mail server, well i am not
> comparing one with tht of Qmail, but decent enough with absolutely no
> breakdown at all. Tht should be good enough to work on.


Well, from time to time I have seen JVM's crash. I am not sure whether
you can achieve "no breakdown at all" on that platform.

>>> Server
>>> portability OS level can also be achieved on that. Then why not to
>>> have something of this sort ??

>> What do you need a mail server on an application server? Usually there
>> is already a mail server in any corporate network which can be used
>> easily from any Java app server product.

>
> I am talking about removing that mail server as tht needs opne more
> admin who has knowledge on mail server rather than java knowledge. In
> our case, a single java guy can handle it.


What if that guy does not understand how SMTP, POP and IMAP work? I'd
say Java knowledge only is not enough to administer a mail server. And
these days mail servers are pretty complex beasts. Just think of the
various mechanism to fight spam and prevent your site from being taken
down by someone who uses your open relay...

>> A more general notice: if you lump all these on a single box then your
>> mail goes down if your application server breaks and vice versa.
>> Separation of critical systems is a good idea to increase robustness of
>> your business.

>
> Absolutely true, but something has to sacrificed for smthg else :(


That's true.

>> Having said that, there is nothing that stops you from throwing all of
>> them on a single Linux, BSD, Solaris or even Windows box. Btw, I
>> believe Microsoft is already offering something like this ("small
>> business server"). But I doubt you will find something that "just
>> works" with zero maintenance overhead.

>
> Yeah. microsoft does but its paid software.


So you want a super easy to administer, super robust solution for zero
money. Well...

> Havent seen anythg from
> java open source side. Or Even Lotus Notes from IBM. Its again a heavy
> weight component built on java.


Not sure what you try to convey by your Notes reference.

Cheers

robert


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