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jmDesktop 06-03-2008 08:55 PM

Which do I use for web design?
 
If you were starting a web project from scratch, which technology
would you use? I have looked at various. I saw "regular" jsp
scriplets, servlets emitting html, JavaBeans, JSTL, EL, JSF, and then
frameworks (or is JSF a framework?)

Outside of using frameworks, what would you use? It is a webpage that
could develop into a homemade CMS. Probably use MySQL to store
account information.

I've been thinking about it and I can't bring myself to use any
embedded code like PHP, Classic ASP or older JSP constructs, or
emitted HTML. So, it appears that I would use JavaBeans, servlets to
talk to those JavaBeans and HTML files that have EL in them.

Is this a "good" way to do things? Or should I try JSF which seems
very popular.

I digress, but the security aspect of it seems like something that is
missing from many of the frameworks I have seen and nothing in JSP
like ASP.NET has, which is why I mention the MySQL above.

Thank you.

Mark Space 06-03-2008 11:19 PM

Re: Which do I use for web design?
 
jmDesktop wrote:
> If you were starting a web project from scratch, which technology
> would you use? I have looked at various. I saw "regular" jsp
> scriplets, servlets emitting html, JavaBeans, JSTL, EL, JSF, and then
> frameworks (or is JSF a framework?)


All those, except the part about emitting HTML.

>
> Outside of using frameworks, what would you use? It is a webpage that
> could develop into a homemade CMS. Probably use MySQL to store
> account information.


There are CMS systems available that are written in Java. Do a search.


>
> I've been thinking about it and I can't bring myself to use any
> embedded code like PHP, Classic ASP or older JSP constructs, or
> emitted HTML. So, it appears that I would use JavaBeans, servlets to
> talk to those JavaBeans and HTML files that have EL in them.


Talking to JavaBeans seems ok to me. Maybe look into a framework like
Hibernate and Spring. The rest are I don't care for either.


>
> Is this a "good" way to do things? Or should I try JSF which seems
> very popular.


Look into a few of the frameworks. Make some mock ups and decide which
works well for you. Don't ignore IDEs, builders, etc., which can make
you life much easier.

JSF is a framework, and I think really just for user interface
components. It's like AJAX. Centered on stuff that runs in the
browser. It's not a full framework, JSF sites still use Hibernate or
whatever to manage back-end stuff.

You will need a mix of frameworks. Each one does something specific.
None that I know of is a "full" framework.


>
> I digress, but the security aspect of it seems like something that is
> missing from many of the frameworks I have seen and nothing in JSP
> like ASP.NET has, which is why I mention the MySQL above.


What does ASP.NET do? I'd think that no security framework replaces
good design, technical understanding and rigorous testing, but I bet MS
promotes their products that way.



Arne Vajh°j 06-03-2008 11:40 PM

Re: Which do I use for web design?
 
jmDesktop wrote:
> If you were starting a web project from scratch, which technology
> would you use? I have looked at various. I saw "regular" jsp
> scriplets, servlets emitting html, JavaBeans, JSTL, EL, JSF, and then
> frameworks (or is JSF a framework?)


+: servlet, JSP, JavaBeans, EL, JSTL, JSF

-: scriptlet in JSP, emitting HTML in servlets

> Outside of using frameworks, what would you use? It is a webpage that
> could develop into a homemade CMS. Probably use MySQL to store
> account information.
>
> I've been thinking about it and I can't bring myself to use any
> embedded code like PHP, Classic ASP or older JSP constructs, or
> emitted HTML. So, it appears that I would use JavaBeans, servlets to
> talk to those JavaBeans and HTML files that have EL in them.


the request get routed to a servlet (very likely one in the framework
not written by you), that servlet calls some Java code and in the end
forward to a JSP page where EL, JSTL and possible other taglibs extract
data from JavaBeans to produce output.

> I digress, but the security aspect of it seems like something that is
> missing from many of the frameworks I have seen and nothing in JSP
> like ASP.NET has, which is why I mention the MySQL above.


All servlet containers support container managed security and has
for many many years.

Arne

Roedy Green 06-04-2008 12:42 AM

Re: Which do I use for web design?
 
On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 13:55:03 -0700 (PDT), jmDesktop
<needin4mation@gmail.com> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone
who said :

>If you were starting a web project from scratch, which technology
>would you use


Giant projects will go J2EE routes.

Tiny ones JSF.

Ones you have get ready soon without a long learning curve, pure
Servlets.

Mid size ones templates.

Commercial ones are all going AJAX which I consider nuts.

I think the word SHOULD be using either a combination of client/server
side Java with either generic Applets or generated Applets.
--

Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
The Java Glossary
http://mindprod.com

Arne Vajh°j 06-04-2008 12:52 AM

Re: Which do I use for web design?
 
Roedy Green wrote:
> On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 13:55:03 -0700 (PDT), jmDesktop
> <needin4mation@gmail.com> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone
> who said :
>> If you were starting a web project from scratch, which technology
>> would you use

>
> Giant projects will go J2EE routes.
>
> Tiny ones JSF.


JSF is part of Java EE.

> Ones you have get ready soon without a long learning curve, pure
> Servlets.


Why not pure JSP's ?

> Mid size ones templates.


Velocity ??

> Commercial ones are all going AJAX which I consider nuts.


AJAX is client side.

Arne

jmDesktop 06-04-2008 01:44 AM

Re: Which do I use for web design?
 
On Jun 3, 7:19*pm, Mark Space <marksp...@sbc.global.net> wrote:
> jmDesktop wrote:
> > If you were starting a web project from scratch, which technology
> > would you use? *I have looked at various. *I saw "regular" jsp
> > scriplets, servlets emitting html, JavaBeans, JSTL, EL, JSF, and then
> > frameworks (or is JSF a framework?)

>
> All those, except the part about emitting HTML.
>
>
>
> > Outside of using frameworks, what would you use? *It is a webpage that
> > could develop into a homemade CMS. *Probably use MySQL to store
> > account information.

>
> There are CMS systems available that are written in Java. *Do a search.


I know about them. I've seen them. I don't want one yet. I want to
learn myself.



> > I've been thinking about it and I can't bring myself to use any
> > embedded code like PHP, Classic ASP or older JSP constructs, or
> > emitted HTML. *So, it appears that I would use JavaBeans, servlets to
> > talk to those JavaBeans and HTML files that have EL in them.

>
> Talking to JavaBeans seems ok to me. *Maybe look into a framework like
> Hibernate and Spring. *The rest are I don't care for either.
>
>
>
> > Is this a "good" way to do things? *Or should I try JSF which seems
> > very popular.

>
> Look into a few of the frameworks. *Make some mock ups and decide which
> works well for you. *Don't ignore IDEs, builders, etc., which can make
> you life much easier.


I'm using NetBeans. Not really wanting a framework yet. Trying to
learn myself.

> JSF is a framework, and I think really just for user interface
> components. *It's like AJAX. *Centered on stuff that runs in the
> browser. *It's not a full framework, JSF sites still use Hibernate or
> whatever to manage back-end stuff.
>
> You will need a mix of frameworks. *Each one does something specific.
> None that I know of is a "full" framework.
>
>
>
> > I digress, but the security aspect of it seems like something that is
> > missing from many of the frameworks I have seen and nothing in JSP
> > like ASP.NET has, which is why I mention the MySQL above.

>
> What does ASP.NET do? *I'd think that no security framework replaces
> good design, technical understanding and rigorous testing, but I bet MS
> promotes their products that way.


It has a "thing" where you can use security components and using MS
Sql Server and Visual Studio you can create a login portal app fairly
quickly.

Thanks.

jmDesktop 06-04-2008 01:46 AM

Re: Which do I use for web design?
 
On Jun 3, 8:52*pm, Arne Vajh°j <a...@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
> Roedy Green wrote:
> > On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 13:55:03 -0700 (PDT), jmDesktop
> > <needin4mat...@gmail.com> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone
> > who said :
> >> If you were starting a web project from scratch, which technology
> >> would you use

>
> > Giant projects will go J2EE routes.

>
> > Tiny ones JSF.

>
> JSF is part of Java EE.


I thought all of these were parts of J2EE.

> > Ones you have get ready soon without a long learning curve, pure
> > Servlets.

>
> Why not pure JSP's ?


What is "pure servlets"? I don't want to emit html code from
servlets.

> > Mid size ones templates.

>
> Velocity ??
>
> > Commercial ones are all going AJAX which I consider nuts.

>
> AJAX is client side.
>
> Arne


Thanks.

Arne Vajh°j 06-04-2008 01:49 AM

Re: Which do I use for web design?
 
jmDesktop wrote:
> On Jun 3, 8:52 pm, Arne Vajh°j <a...@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
>> Roedy Green wrote:
>>> On Tue, 3 Jun 2008 13:55:03 -0700 (PDT), jmDesktop
>>> <needin4mat...@gmail.com> wrote, quoted or indirectly quoted someone
>>> who said :
>>>> If you were starting a web project from scratch, which technology
>>>> would you use
>>> Giant projects will go J2EE routes.
>>> Tiny ones JSF.

>> JSF is part of Java EE.

>
> I thought all of these were parts of J2EE.


To maximize confusion SUN changed the name of J2EE to Java EE.

>>> Ones you have get ready soon without a long learning curve, pure
>>> Servlets.

>> Why not pure JSP's ?

>
> What is "pure servlets"? I don't want to emit html code from
> servlets.


Pure xxxx = a solution with only xxxx.

Arne

Arne Vajh°j 06-04-2008 01:52 AM

Re: Which do I use for web design?
 
jmDesktop wrote:
> On Jun 3, 7:19 pm, Mark Space <marksp...@sbc.global.net> wrote:
>> What does ASP.NET do? I'd think that no security framework replaces
>> good design, technical understanding and rigorous testing, but I bet MS
>> promotes their products that way.

>
> It has a "thing" where you can use security components and using MS
> Sql Server and Visual Studio you can create a login portal app fairly
> quickly.


Java EE has supported something similar since before .NET 1.0 was
released.

Container managed security is the term.

To be fair - the out of the box functionality is typical
simpler than what ASP.NET provides - just usernames, passwords
and roles in the database, but that is sufficient for a simple app.

Arne

Mark Space 06-04-2008 04:42 AM

Re: Which do I use for web design?
 
jmDesktop wrote:

>
> I'm using NetBeans. Not really wanting a framework yet. Trying to
> learn myself.
>


Ah ha. Well check out this site and their Java EE page, it will help.

http://javapassion.com/

http://www.javapassion.com/j2ee/

It's a confusing, broad subject. Sang Shin does a good job of sorting
out the basics. It looks like the next course is starting up in one
month, so you're well just in time to jump on the site and take his free
course.


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