Velocity Reviews

Velocity Reviews (http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/index.php)
-   NZ Computing (http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/f47-nz-computing.html)
-   -   Re: MS worried about the embedded space (http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/t613923-re-ms-worried-about-the-embedded-space.html)

impossible 04-19-2008 08:12 PM

Re: MS worried about the embedded space
 
"thingy" <thingy@not.here.commy> wrote in message
news:asmld5-jmc.ln1@news.vuw.ac.nz...
> "... Microsoft Corp. today announced plans to rejigger and expand its
> Windows Embedded family of operating systems in an attempt to enlist
> developers of handhelds and other devices to help the software vendor
> combat increasing competition from Linux....."
>
> ".......last October, VDC released the results of a survey (download PDF)
> in which embedded developers overwhelmingly said that they planned to use
> either free or licensed versions of Linux on their next projects instead
> of proprietary operating systems. "Linux remains an attractive operating
> system choice for a range of embedded development teams for a number of
> reasons, including: royalty-free runtime costs, advanced networking
> capabilities and technical features, [and] the large base of engineers
> familiar with the Linux operating system," the research firm
> said........."
>
> http://www.computerworld.com/action/...icleId=9077838
>


Hmmm....so Microsoft has 32% of the embedded os market and Linux has 8%. I
had no idea so many vendors were using Windows. And did you hear? IBM just
switched from Suse to Windows for all its POS hardware? So that's an
unexpected setback, eh?



Squiggle 04-19-2008 10:17 PM

Re: MS worried about the embedded space
 
Smoking Causes Lung Cancer (SCLC) wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Apr 2008 20:12:09 +0000, impossible wrote:
>
>> Hmmm....so Microsoft has 32% of the embedded os market and Linux has 8%.

>
> What has the other 60%?
>
>


Real embedded OSes. Vxworks, uC/OS ,ECOS etc.. Some may not even bother
with anything that could realistically be called an OS.

impossible 04-20-2008 06:22 AM

Re: MS worried about the embedded space
 
"sam" <sam@green.eggs.ham> wrote in message news:480a8039@clear.net.nz...
> Squiggle wrote:
>> Smoking Causes Lung Cancer (SCLC) wrote:
>>> On Sat, 19 Apr 2008 20:12:09 +0000, impossible wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hmmm....so Microsoft has 32% of the embedded os market and Linux has
>>>> 8%.
>>>
>>> What has the other 60%?
>>>
>>>

>>
>> Real embedded OSes. Vxworks, uC/OS ,ECOS etc.. Some may not even bother
>> with anything that could realistically be called an OS.

>
> I don't believe Microsoft has anything like 32% of the number of embedded
> operating systems in use on all the embedded CPUs, there are 10 billion
> ARM processors sold so far and they comprise 75% of the 32 bit market


Only a tiny fraction of all ARM processors are equipped with an embedded os.
So what's your point?

> In phones, Microsofts share is miniscule, in printers, routers,
> appliances, industrial controllers, cars, gps, depth sounders, cameras,
> dvrs, set-top boxes, av receivers, industrial robots, security systems,
> serial converters etcetcetc ad infinitum nothing


When you source some actual market-share numbers, we can discuss what -- if
anything -- here is relevant. But it's clear from your laundry list that you
really have no clue whatsoever about the market for embedded software at
all. Phones are the single fastest growing market, and we know that Linux is
getting beaten badly here by both Apple and Microsoft. But most of the
devices you mention have no use for **any** os at all, so I don't no why you
bother bringing them up. Many (especially those in the category of
industrial controllers and robots) utilise software that is strictly
proprietary to the hardware manufacturer. Others (especially those in the
category of household appliances and consumer electronics) involve such
simple, generic types of coding that it's hardly worth talking about this
stuff as software at all. So sort out exactly what it is you'd like to
discuss, do some research for a change that involves sourcing real data, and
I'll be happy to compare notes with you.

> They might claim that they make 32% of the revenue of embedded operating
> systems in some arbitrarily defined segment who knows how they derive
> these PR figures ?
> But it isn't on 32% of the embedded cpus


As I said, referencing the article Thingy cited, Microsoft has 32% of the
embedded os market and Linux has 8%. If you find some evidence to contradict
that statement, I'd love to see it.



impossible 04-20-2008 07:18 AM

Re: MS worried about the embedded space
 
"ChrisOD" <chris@dont.send.me.any.email> wrote in message
news:slrng0kug2.u43.chris@cf-cod.kod...
> On 2008-04-19, impossible <impossible@nospam.com> wrote:
>> "thingy" <thingy@not.here.commy> wrote in message
>> news:asmld5-jmc.ln1@news.vuw.ac.nz...
>>> "... Microsoft Corp. today announced plans to rejigger and expand its
>>> Windows Embedded family of operating systems in an attempt to enlist
>>> developers of handhelds and other devices to help the software vendor
>>> combat increasing competition from Linux....."
>>>
>>> ".......last October, VDC released the results of a survey (download
>>> PDF)
>>> in which embedded developers overwhelmingly said that they planned to
>>> use
>>> either free or licensed versions of Linux on their next projects instead
>>> of proprietary operating systems. "Linux remains an attractive operating
>>> system choice for a range of embedded development teams for a number of
>>> reasons, including: royalty-free runtime costs, advanced networking
>>> capabilities and technical features, [and] the large base of engineers
>>> familiar with the Linux operating system," the research firm
>>> said........."
>>>
>>> http://www.computerworld.com/action/...icleId=9077838
>>>

>>
>> Hmmm....so Microsoft has 32% of the embedded os market and Linux has 8%.
>> I
>> had no idea so many vendors were using Windows. And did you hear? IBM
>> just
>> switched from Suse to Windows for all its POS hardware? So that's an
>> unexpected setback, eh?
>>
>>

> Well had in 2006, according to the article quoted in the CW article.
> http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/s...leID=202806015
> Also mentioned in that art.
> "About 47 percent of embedded developers currently say they use a
> commercial
> OS, 21 percent use a non-commercial open source OS, 20 percent use
> homegrown
> software and ten percent use a commercial Linux version"
>
> So 8% of rev from 10% of market for linux in 2006.
>
> But interestingly 21% Open Source non-commercial. Would give Linux
> significantly more % usage than the 8% you quote or even the 10%.
>
> More recent data which seems to spark this article
> http://www.vdc-corp.com/_documents/p...hment-1394.pdf
> shows current (Oct 2007) linux usage for embedded at 11% of commercial
> usage (only up 1%) but 29% usage of non-commercial linux! and commercial
> usage down to 38%.
>


Market share, measured in percentage of dollar income, is very different
from usage share, measured in percentage of projects. I don't doubt that
there are a lot of developers using non-commecial open-source development
tools for their projects. And the number of projects these developers are
involved in may very well be growing. However, the important question to me
is not the popularity of any given development package but the size, scope,
complexity, and (ultimately) profitability of the projects concerned.
Unfortunately, the 2007 VDC survey you mention offers no information about
that. If I were a developer, I'd much prefer to have one project worth $2
million in the works than 50 projects worth $20,000. Wouldn't you? And
that's where market share becomes a much more useful statistic than usage
for tracking business trends.

> And even scarier for commercial embedded vendors the next project planned
> usage is down to 12% for commercial OSs.
>


If that's true, we're bound to see it reflected in some soon-to-be-released
market share numbers. But I must say I'm doubtful. For years, we've all been
reading reports predicting that "next year", "next time", "next project"
will be the time for [name your favorite open-source distro/tool]. I'll
believe it when I see it.

> Yes agreed MS has managed to OWN the POS market by a well designed OS
> directed at the needs of a specialised market. But can MS follow this
> trend to diversify their offerings into every other specialised market?
>


No, but then Microsoft has always picked its spots. It's as likely to buy
into some market via an acqusition as strike out on its own from scratch.



impossible 04-20-2008 02:42 PM

Re: MS worried about the embedded space
 
"Smoking Causes Lung Cancer (SCLC)" <SCLC@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:pan.2008.04.20.07.56.16@nospam.invalid...
> On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 06:22:18 +0000, impossible wrote:
>
>> As I said, referencing the article Thingy cited, Microsoft has 32% of
>> the embedded os market and Linux has 8%. If you find some evidence to
>> contradict that statement, I'd love to see it.

>
> You've conveniently not included the statistics for who has the other 60%
> of the embedded OS market.
>
> Please include that data in order for comparisons to be accurately made.
>
> Please also include data for year on year comparisons over the last 5
> years so that a historical trend can be seen.
>
> As you know, the historical trend for adoption of software is of more
> interest than the snapshot of any one given year.
>
>
> --


The complete VDC report is available for purchase here ($US6250):

http://www.vdc-corp.com/Purchase.asp...on=esw&id=2085

Expect to pay more for custom tabulations.



sam 04-21-2008 02:17 AM

Re: MS worried about the embedded space
 
impossible wrote:
> "sam" <sam@green.eggs.ham> wrote in message news:480a8039@clear.net.nz...
>> Squiggle wrote:
>>> Smoking Causes Lung Cancer (SCLC) wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 19 Apr 2008 20:12:09 +0000, impossible wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hmmm....so Microsoft has 32% of the embedded os market and Linux has
>>>>> 8%.
>>>> What has the other 60%?
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Real embedded OSes. Vxworks, uC/OS ,ECOS etc.. Some may not even bother
>>> with anything that could realistically be called an OS.

>> I don't believe Microsoft has anything like 32% of the number of embedded
>> operating systems in use on all the embedded CPUs, there are 10 billion
>> ARM processors sold so far and they comprise 75% of the 32 bit market

>
> Only a tiny fraction of all ARM processors are equipped with an embedded os.
> So what's your point?
>
>> In phones, Microsofts share is miniscule, in printers, routers,
>> appliances, industrial controllers, cars, gps, depth sounders, cameras,
>> dvrs, set-top boxes, av receivers, industrial robots, security systems,
>> serial converters etcetcetc ad infinitum nothing

>
> When you source some actual market-share numbers, we can discuss what -- if
> anything -- here is relevant. But it's clear from your laundry list that you
> really have no clue whatsoever about the market for embedded software at
> all. Phones are the single fastest growing market, and we know that Linux is
> getting beaten badly here by both Apple and Microsoft.


You previously linked to a report prepared for Symbian that showed Linux
was second only to Symbian in worldwide phone operating systems, Apple
only figured in the US figures, where it was beating Microsoft and
didn't rate worldwide. Microsoft was one of the also rans in every other
market outside the US



But most of the
> devices you mention have no use for **any** os at all, so I don't no why you
> bother bringing them up. Many (especially those in the category of
> industrial controllers and robots) utilise software that is strictly
> proprietary to the hardware manufacturer. Others (especially those in the
> category of household appliances and consumer electronics) involve such
> simple, generic types of coding that it's hardly worth talking about this
> stuff as software at all. So sort out exactly what it is you'd like to
> discuss, do some research for a change that involves sourcing real data, and
> I'll be happy to compare notes with you.


There are plenty of consumer dvrs for instance from the likes of
Panasonic that are now using Linux, just like the TiVo.
None of these figure as revenue in your Microsoft propaganda piece,
because the software is free

>
>> They might claim that they make 32% of the revenue of embedded operating
>> systems in some arbitrarily defined segment who knows how they derive
>> these PR figures ?
>> But it isn't on 32% of the embedded cpus

>
> As I said, referencing the article Thingy cited, Microsoft has 32% of the
> embedded os market and Linux has 8%. If you find some evidence to contradict
> that statement, I'd love to see it.
>
>

Some consolation, comparing Windows CE license revenue to commercial
revenue for small embedded linux vendors like Montavista, but they don't
show the actual usage as well as this report.
http://www.vdc-corp.com/_documents/p...hment-1394.pdf

Wintrolls love trying to confuse linux usage with linux sales revenue,

There are more Linux embedded software users than the total of all
commercial embedded OSs. The competitive advantage they have is that
they don't have to buy it.

impossible 04-21-2008 12:11 PM

Re: MS worried about the embedded space
 
"thingy" <thingy@not.here.commy> wrote in message
news:qlatd5-0t4.ln1@news.vuw.ac.nz...
> impossible wrote:
>
> 8><----
>
>>> http://www.computerworld.com/action/...icleId=9077838
>>>

>>
>> Hmmm....so Microsoft has 32% of the embedded os market and Linux has 8%.

>
> No, commercial versions of embedded Linux a total market share of 8%.
>


Market=commercial.

> Cant get you facts straight can you....
>


My facts are **always** absolutely accurate and sourced. Yours?
Non-existent.

> So that's a paid for version as opposed to a downloaded and free used
> version, which I think I read somewhere as in the 20~30% range....in which
> case ALL Linux's share is near to or exceeds MS's share (28~38%)
>


Can't you keep your categories straight. There's no **market** for Linux
giveaways. So feel free to make up any **usage** numbers you please --
they're absolutely meaningless. Let's see....How many Linux developers does
it take to........?....oh, well, there's a joke there somewhere.

>> had no idea so many vendors were using Windows. And did you hear? IBM
>> just switched from Suse to Windows for all its POS hardware? So that's an
>> unexpected setback, eh?

>
> Why? did you read about Newham council? how MS has failed to deliver? now
> that is a real set back. A flagship council that MS did a deal with so
> open source did not go in, yet 4 years later MS has not performed.
>


Can't you keep your threads straight? We were talking about embedded
operating systems here.

Anyway....Newham....yes, congratulations. But beware what you wish for. It
sounds like the Newham Council has decided to what IT its whipping boy. And
we all know how badly performed the Linux project in Munich turned out to
be.



impossible 04-21-2008 12:22 PM

Re: MS worried about the embedded space
 
"sam" <sam@privacy.net> wrote in message news:fugtgk$j2a$1@aioe.org...
> impossible wrote:
>> "sam" <sam@green.eggs.ham> wrote in message news:480a8039@clear.net.nz...
>>> Squiggle wrote:
>>>> Smoking Causes Lung Cancer (SCLC) wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 19 Apr 2008 20:12:09 +0000, impossible wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hmmm....so Microsoft has 32% of the embedded os market and Linux has
>>>>>> 8%.
>>>>> What has the other 60%?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Real embedded OSes. Vxworks, uC/OS ,ECOS etc.. Some may not even bother
>>>> with anything that could realistically be called an OS.
>>> I don't believe Microsoft has anything like 32% of the number of
>>> embedded operating systems in use on all the embedded CPUs, there are 10
>>> billion ARM processors sold so far and they comprise 75% of the 32 bit
>>> market

>>
>> Only a tiny fraction of all ARM processors are equipped with an embedded
>> os. So what's your point?
>>
>>> In phones, Microsofts share is miniscule, in printers, routers,
>>> appliances, industrial controllers, cars, gps, depth sounders, cameras,
>>> dvrs, set-top boxes, av receivers, industrial robots, security systems,
>>> serial converters etcetcetc ad infinitum nothing

>>
>> When you source some actual market-share numbers, we can discuss what --
>> if anything -- here is relevant. But it's clear from your laundry list
>> that you really have no clue whatsoever about the market for embedded
>> software at all. Phones are the single fastest growing market, and we
>> know that Linux is getting beaten badly here by both Apple and Microsoft.

>
> You previously linked to a report prepared for Symbian that showed Linux
> was second only to Symbian in worldwide phone operating systems, Apple
> only figured in the US figures, where it was beating Microsoft and didn't
> rate worldwide. Microsoft was one of the also rans in every other market
> outside the US
>


Am I the only one around here who can read?

US: "RIM won 42 percent market share, according to Canalys, compared to
Apple at 27 percent, Windows Mobile at 21 percent, and Palm at a nine
percent. Linux, apparently was so far behind it didn't even deserve a
mention."

Worldwide: "Symbian dominated with a 65 percent market share, compared to
Microsoft's 12 percent, RIM's 11 percent, Apple's seven percent, and Linux's
five percent.

http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS3506923462.html

>
> But most of the
>> devices you mention have no use for **any** os at all, so I don't no why
>> you bother bringing them up. Many (especially those in the category of
>> industrial controllers and robots) utilise software that is strictly
>> proprietary to the hardware manufacturer. Others (especially those in the
>> category of household appliances and consumer electronics) involve such
>> simple, generic types of coding that it's hardly worth talking about this
>> stuff as software at all. So sort out exactly what it is you'd like to
>> discuss, do some research for a change that involves sourcing real data,
>> and I'll be happy to compare notes with you.

>
> There are plenty of consumer dvrs for instance from the likes of Panasonic
> that are now using Linux, just like the TiVo.
> None of these figure as revenue in your Microsoft propaganda piece,
> because the software is free
>


The truth hurts, I know, but Linux has a teeny, tiny shae of the embedded
market. Deal with it.

>>
>>> They might claim that they make 32% of the revenue of embedded operating
>>> systems in some arbitrarily defined segment who knows how they derive
>>> these PR figures ?
>>> But it isn't on 32% of the embedded cpus

>>
>> As I said, referencing the article Thingy cited, Microsoft has 32% of
>> the embedded os market and Linux has 8%. If you find some evidence to
>> contradict that statement, I'd love to see it.

> Some consolation, comparing Windows CE license revenue to commercial
> revenue for small embedded linux vendors like Montavista, but they don't
> show the actual usage as well as this report.
> http://www.vdc-corp.com/_documents/p...hment-1394.pdf
>
> Wintrolls love trying to confuse linux usage with linux sales revenue,
>
> There are more Linux embedded software users than the total of all
> commercial embedded OSs. The competitive advantage they have is that they
> don't have to buy it.


COLA Trolls seems incapable of distinguishing between sales revenue and
usage. If you're running a business -- as IBM, RedHat, and Novelll have
discovered to your grief -- this difference is rather important. As I keep
telling you -- feel free to make up any usage numbers you like. They are all
wild guesstimates, and absolutely meaningless.



sam 04-21-2008 09:07 PM

Re: MS worried about the embedded space
 
impossible wrote:
> "sam" <sam@privacy.net> wrote in message news:fugtgk$j2a$1@aioe.org...
>> impossible wrote:
>>> "sam" <sam@green.eggs.ham> wrote in message news:480a8039@clear.net.nz...
>>>> Squiggle wrote:
>>>>> Smoking Causes Lung Cancer (SCLC) wrote:
>>>>>> On Sat, 19 Apr 2008 20:12:09 +0000, impossible wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hmmm....so Microsoft has 32% of the embedded os market and Linux has
>>>>>>> 8%.
>>>>>> What has the other 60%?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Real embedded OSes. Vxworks, uC/OS ,ECOS etc.. Some may not even bother
>>>>> with anything that could realistically be called an OS.
>>>> I don't believe Microsoft has anything like 32% of the number of
>>>> embedded operating systems in use on all the embedded CPUs, there are 10
>>>> billion ARM processors sold so far and they comprise 75% of the 32 bit
>>>> market
>>> Only a tiny fraction of all ARM processors are equipped with an embedded
>>> os. So what's your point?
>>>
>>>> In phones, Microsofts share is miniscule, in printers, routers,
>>>> appliances, industrial controllers, cars, gps, depth sounders, cameras,
>>>> dvrs, set-top boxes, av receivers, industrial robots, security systems,
>>>> serial converters etcetcetc ad infinitum nothing
>>> When you source some actual market-share numbers, we can discuss what --
>>> if anything -- here is relevant. But it's clear from your laundry list
>>> that you really have no clue whatsoever about the market for embedded
>>> software at all. Phones are the single fastest growing market, and we
>>> know that Linux is getting beaten badly here by both Apple and Microsoft.

>> You previously linked to a report prepared for Symbian that showed Linux
>> was second only to Symbian in worldwide phone operating systems, Apple
>> only figured in the US figures, where it was beating Microsoft and didn't
>> rate worldwide. Microsoft was one of the also rans in every other market
>> outside the US
>>

>
> Am I the only one around here who can read?


You don't have a **** show of understanding what you read, thats for sure.


>
> US: "RIM won 42 percent market share, according to Canalys, compared to
> Apple at 27 percent, Windows Mobile at 21 percent, and Palm at a nine
> percent. Linux, apparently was so far behind it didn't even deserve a
> mention."
>
> Worldwide: "Symbian dominated with a 65 percent market share, compared to
> Microsoft's 12 percent, RIM's 11 percent, Apple's seven percent, and Linux's
> five percent.
>
> http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS3506923462.html


Just smartphones.

Take it across all embedded phone operating systems and have a look at
the actual Canalys report published by Symbian.




>
>> But most of the
>>> devices you mention have no use for **any** os at all, so I don't no why
>>> you bother bringing them up. Many (especially those in the category of
>>> industrial controllers and robots) utilise software that is strictly
>>> proprietary to the hardware manufacturer. Others (especially those in the
>>> category of household appliances and consumer electronics) involve such
>>> simple, generic types of coding that it's hardly worth talking about this
>>> stuff as software at all. So sort out exactly what it is you'd like to
>>> discuss, do some research for a change that involves sourcing real data,
>>> and I'll be happy to compare notes with you.

>> There are plenty of consumer dvrs for instance from the likes of Panasonic
>> that are now using Linux, just like the TiVo.
>> None of these figure as revenue in your Microsoft propaganda piece,
>> because the software is free
>>

>
> The truth hurts, I know, but Linux has a teeny, tiny shae of the embedded
> market. Deal with it.


Microsoft does offer a packaged solution, but embedded device
manufacturers are developing the hardware anyway, building something
better for their purposes with Linux is usually easier.

>
>>>> They might claim that they make 32% of the revenue of embedded operating
>>>> systems in some arbitrarily defined segment who knows how they derive
>>>> these PR figures ?
>>>> But it isn't on 32% of the embedded cpus
>>> As I said, referencing the article Thingy cited, Microsoft has 32% of
>>> the embedded os market and Linux has 8%. If you find some evidence to
>>> contradict that statement, I'd love to see it.

>> Some consolation, comparing Windows CE license revenue to commercial
>> revenue for small embedded linux vendors like Montavista, but they don't
>> show the actual usage as well as this report.
>> http://www.vdc-corp.com/_documents/p...hment-1394.pdf
>>
>> Wintrolls love trying to confuse linux usage with linux sales revenue,
>>
>> There are more Linux embedded software users than the total of all
>> commercial embedded OSs. The competitive advantage they have is that they
>> don't have to buy it.

>
> COLA Trolls seems incapable of distinguishing between sales revenue and
> usage. If you're running a business -- as IBM, RedHat, and Novelll have
> discovered to your grief -- this difference is rather important. As I keep
> telling you -- feel free to make up any usage numbers you like. They are all
> wild guesstimates, and absolutely meaningless.
>
>


If you are running a business selling phones or other embedded devices,
there is no point paying IBM Redhat Novell or Microsoft for your
opeating system if you can use an open source distribution like LiMo.
Linux is an operating system, not a corporation.


sam 04-21-2008 09:19 PM

Re: MS worried about the embedded space
 
impossible wrote:
> "thingy" <thingy@not.here.commy> wrote in message
> news:qlatd5-0t4.ln1@news.vuw.ac.nz...
>> impossible wrote:
>>
>> 8><----
>>
>>>> http://www.computerworld.com/action/...icleId=9077838
>>>>
>>> Hmmm....so Microsoft has 32% of the embedded os market and Linux has 8%.

>> No, commercial versions of embedded Linux a total market share of 8%.
>>

>
> Market=commercial.
>
>> Cant get you facts straight can you....
>>

>
> My facts are **always** absolutely accurate and sourced. Yours?
> Non-existent.
>
>> So that's a paid for version as opposed to a downloaded and free used
>> version, which I think I read somewhere as in the 20~30% range....in which
>> case ALL Linux's share is near to or exceeds MS's share (28~38%)
>>

>
> Can't you keep your categories straight. There's no **market** for Linux
> giveaways. So feel free to make up any **usage** numbers you please --
> they're absolutely meaningless.


Except they supply the embedded device makers and reduce the demand for
Windows.
In the market for embedded devices Windows is on a very minor share of
those devices.
Saying that Windows makes more from sales than a free operating system
might give them a nice warm feeling but thats as significant as it gets,
its like saying that bottled water makes more money than rain.



All times are GMT. The time now is 05:02 AM.

Powered by vBulletin®. Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO ©2010, Crawlability, Inc.