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-   -   linux fc4 a quick look.... (http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/t577653-linux-fc4-a-quick-look.html)

Nova 01-24-2006 03:13 AM

linux fc4 a quick look....
 
I decided to have a quick look at linux today after reading many people
write how easy it has become. I use windows normally though am forced
to use many *nix boxes at work for development but that is all from the
command shell. I was curious to see what a desktop environment was like
in linux compared to windows...

I installed fedora core 4, the installer was pretty straight forward,
had no problems picking up my hardware which is all pretty old hardware
now and very standard in this particular box. i do like it how all the
installation questions are asked at the start and then no more are
needed and only one reboot at the end of installation.. Where as in
windows the installation is interupted at times for network questions,
region questions, user setup questions etc etc.

Anyway so I look at the desktop in Fedora (kde), it's quite nice...

The first thing I decide to do is upgrade firefox on the system to
version 1.5. i browse to the firefox website and download the linux
distribution.

The linux installation instructions..

"Extract the tarball in the directory where you want to install Firefox:

tar -xzvf firefox-1.5.tar.gz

This will create a firefox subdirectory of that directory."

Now compare this to windows..

"Double click the Firefox Setup 1.5.exe installer to start the install."


Hmmm, seems it is a lot easier on windows,, double clicking with a mouse
or just clicking open at the end of the download.. compared to having
to open a shell, nagigate in the shell to the location that the browser
saved it in (which probably the majority of computer users will have no
idea where their browser saved it in).
Of course they would need to know the cd commands to change directory..
Then they have to manually uncompress the binary and decide where to put
that directory...

Anyway it just seemed strange that the first thing I went to do seemed
no where near as straight forward as what was required on windows and
for the majority of people that would be where it ends..

I then decided to run the auto software updater, I ran it, it asked for
the root password which i entered, it then sat there doing nothing for
the next 10 minutes.. wonderful..

Anyway as it is free it is still pretty cool but due to the lack of me
favourite software being on the OS and having to go into the shell to
upgrade a program seems i am not missing much really..

Shane 01-24-2006 03:56 AM

Re: linux fc4 a quick look....
 
On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 16:13:49 +1300, Nova wrote:

> I decided to have a quick look at linux today after reading many people
> write how easy it has become. I use windows normally though am forced to
> use many *nix boxes at work for development but that is all from the
> command shell. I was curious to see what a desktop environment was like
> in linux compared to windows...
>
> I installed fedora core 4, the installer was pretty straight forward, had
> no problems picking up my hardware which is all pretty old hardware now
> and very standard in this particular box. i do like it how all the
> installation questions are asked at the start and then no more are needed
> and only one reboot at the end of installation.. Where as in windows the
> installation is interupted at times for network questions, region
> questions, user setup questions etc etc.
>
> Anyway so I look at the desktop in Fedora (kde), it's quite nice...
>
> The first thing I decide to do is upgrade firefox on the system to version
> 1.5. i browse to the firefox website and download the linux distribution.
>
> The linux installation instructions..
>
> "Extract the tarball in the directory where you want to install Firefox:
>
> tar -xzvf firefox-1.5.tar.gz
>
> This will create a firefox subdirectory of that directory."
>
> Now compare this to windows..
>
> "Double click the Firefox Setup 1.5.exe installer to start the install."
>
>
> Hmmm, seems it is a lot easier on windows,, double clicking with a mouse
> or just clicking open at the end of the download.. compared to having to
> open a shell, nagigate in the shell to the location that the browser saved
> it in (which probably the majority of computer users will have no idea
> where their browser saved it in). Of course they would need to know the cd
> commands to change directory.. Then they have to manually uncompress the
> binary and decide where to put that directory...
>
> Anyway it just seemed strange that the first thing I went to do seemed no
> where near as straight forward as what was required on windows and for the
> majority of people that would be where it ends..
>
> I then decided to run the auto software updater, I ran it, it asked for
> the root password which i entered, it then sat there doing nothing for the
> next 10 minutes.. wonderful..
>
> Anyway as it is free it is still pretty cool but due to the lack of me
> favourite software being on the OS and having to go into the shell to
> upgrade a program seems i am not missing much really..


weird.. double clicking the tarball on linux should have bought up
StuffIt or something similar (kind of like winrar or winzip et al)

and cd works on windows as well, if I can remember the dagnabbit path

--
Why is it that we rejoice at a birth and grieve at a funeral? It is because we
are not the person involved.
-- Mark Twain, "Pudd'nhead Wilson's Calendar"


David 01-24-2006 05:15 AM

Re: linux fc4 a quick look....
 
Shane wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 16:13:49 +1300, Nova wrote:
>
>> I decided to have a quick look at linux today after reading many people
>> write how easy it has become. I use windows normally though am forced to
>> use many *nix boxes at work for development but that is all from the
>> command shell. I was curious to see what a desktop environment was like
>> in linux compared to windows...
>>
>> I installed fedora core 4, the installer was pretty straight forward, had
>> no problems picking up my hardware which is all pretty old hardware now
>> and very standard in this particular box. i do like it how all the
>> installation questions are asked at the start and then no more are needed
>> and only one reboot at the end of installation.. Where as in windows the
>> installation is interupted at times for network questions, region
>> questions, user setup questions etc etc.
>>
>> Anyway so I look at the desktop in Fedora (kde), it's quite nice...
>>
>> The first thing I decide to do is upgrade firefox on the system to version
>> 1.5. i browse to the firefox website and download the linux distribution.
>>
>> The linux installation instructions..
>>
>> "Extract the tarball in the directory where you want to install Firefox:
>>
>> tar -xzvf firefox-1.5.tar.gz
>>
>> This will create a firefox subdirectory of that directory."
>>
>> Now compare this to windows..
>>
>> "Double click the Firefox Setup 1.5.exe installer to start the install."
>>
>>
>> Hmmm, seems it is a lot easier on windows,, double clicking with a mouse
>> or just clicking open at the end of the download.. compared to having to
>> open a shell, nagigate in the shell to the location that the browser saved
>> it in (which probably the majority of computer users will have no idea
>> where their browser saved it in). Of course they would need to know the cd
>> commands to change directory.. Then they have to manually uncompress the
>> binary and decide where to put that directory...
>>
>> Anyway it just seemed strange that the first thing I went to do seemed no
>> where near as straight forward as what was required on windows and for the
>> majority of people that would be where it ends..
>>
>> I then decided to run the auto software updater, I ran it, it asked for
>> the root password which i entered, it then sat there doing nothing for the
>> next 10 minutes.. wonderful..
>>
>> Anyway as it is free it is still pretty cool but due to the lack of me
>> favourite software being on the OS and having to go into the shell to
>> upgrade a program seems i am not missing much really..

>
> weird.. double clicking the tarball on linux should have bought up
> StuffIt or something similar (kind of like winrar or winzip et al)
>
> and cd works on windows as well, if I can remember the dagnabbit path
>


'cd' works on windows, but for upgrading firefox, there is no need to
use it.

The difficulty installing software is also one of the reasons I don't
use linux. If your distribution doesn't include a package you want, and
the author does not provide binaries for your distribution, you can look
forward to hours of installing compilers, building stuff, deciphering
C++ error messages, hunting out dependancies, etc. (Yes i know it's not
always this hard, automake/conf does a good job, sometimes.)

But for even an advanced user, this is absurd. If you aren't planning on
developing or modifying a program, there is no reason to compile, or
even download its source code. I understand the difficulties created by
the flexibility of linux, the different file locations, available
libraries etc, on windows the developer can assume everything is there
and if he uses any extra libraries etc, he can distribute them with his
software and know it will work.

<IMHO>
I think what linux distros need is a standard for creating applications,
specifying standard libraries that will always be available, providing
everything the average application needs, including GUI libraries, C/C++
standard libraries etc, then combine this with a standardised, but
flexible installation system, like .msi on windows. RPM/deb is good for
what it does, but it is nice to be able to choose some settings etc
while installing the way you can on windows.
Updating could be automatic, but the developer would control updates (I
see no reason to get your software from a third party, ie. your distro,
except for critical/system/distro-specific stuff)

Of course this standardisation would never please every developer, they
would find a way to complain about everything, but not using it would be
their loss; users would not bother installing their software.

Java/.NET/mono provide this to some extent, look at the success of
Azureus on linux, however they are not suitable for everything (it's
alright to have azureus running when all the other software you use is
relatively lean, but imagine 10 different java apps running using
resources in a similar fashion to azureus)
</IMHO>

Gordon 01-24-2006 06:16 AM

Re: linux fc4 a quick look....
 
On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 16:13:49 +1300, Nova wrote:

> Anyway as it is free it is still pretty cool but due to the lack of me
> favourite software being on the OS and having to go into the shell to
> upgrade a program seems i am not missing much really..


Ironically, I never have to get to the command line to update Firefox,
a window just come up saying the next update is ready. Do you wish to do
this now?

All far too much like MS for my ease of mind.

And yes, the comand line is all powerful, know the command, issue it. It
will be done, often to the GUI's bewilderment.

GUI is good, to a point.


Enkidu 01-24-2006 06:46 AM

Re: linux fc4 a quick look....
 
Nova wrote:
>
> The first thing I decide to do is upgrade firefox on the system to
> version 1.5. i browse to the firefox website and download the linux
> distribution.
>
> The linux installation instructions..
>
> "Extract the tarball in the directory where you want to install Firefox:
>
> tar -xzvf firefox-1.5.tar.gz
>
> This will create a firefox subdirectory of that directory."
>

Duh! You install a distro and the FIRST thing you do is install a
tarball? Back to Windows with you!!

Cheers,

Cliff

Peter 01-24-2006 07:13 AM

Re: linux fc4 a quick look....
 
Enkidu wrote:

>> This will create a firefox subdirectory of that directory."
>>

> Duh! You install a distro and the FIRST thing you do is install a
> tarball? Back to Windows with you!!
>


Hey, Cliff, this is not nz.politics we should be kind and gentle to those
feeling their way with Linux.


Enkidu 01-24-2006 09:13 AM

Re: linux fc4 a quick look....
 
Peter wrote:
> Enkidu wrote:
>
>>> This will create a firefox subdirectory of that directory."

>>
>> Duh! You install a distro and the FIRST thing you do is install a
>> tarball? Back to Windows with you!!

>
> Hey, Cliff, this is not nz.politics we should be kind and gentle to
> those feeling their way with Linux.
>

Bugger that! Before we'd know it EVERY linux machine would have a GUI.

Repel the invaders, I say! Keep linux pure!

Cheers,

Cliff

Nova 01-24-2006 09:16 AM

Re: linux fc4 a quick look....
 
Enkidu wrote:
> Nova wrote:
>>
>> The first thing I decide to do is upgrade firefox on the system to
>> version 1.5. i browse to the firefox website and download the linux
>> distribution.
>>
>> The linux installation instructions..
>>
>> "Extract the tarball in the directory where you want to install Firefox:
>>
>> tar -xzvf firefox-1.5.tar.gz
>>
>> This will create a firefox subdirectory of that directory."
>>

> Duh! You install a distro and the FIRST thing you do is install a
> tarball?


The first think I did was read the firefox instructions.
I did also try using the updater in the distro which didn't work.

Back to Windows with you!!

Definitely :)

>
> Cheers,
>
> Cliff


Enkidu 01-24-2006 08:00 PM

Re: linux fc4 a quick look....
 
Nova wrote:
> Enkidu wrote:
>
>> Nova wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> The first thing I decide to do is upgrade firefox on the system to
>>> version 1.5. i browse to the firefox website and download the linux
>>> distribution.
>>>
>>> The linux installation instructions..
>>>
>>> "Extract the tarball in the directory where you want to install Firefox:
>>>
>>> tar -xzvf firefox-1.5.tar.gz
>>>
>>> This will create a firefox subdirectory of that directory."
>>>

>> Duh! You install a distro and the FIRST thing you do is install a
>> tarball?

>
> The first think I did was read the firefox instructions.
> I did also try using the updater in the distro which didn't work.
>

Which really means that *you* failed to get it to work.

Cheers,

Cliff

steve 01-24-2006 08:00 PM

Re: linux fc4 a quick look....
 
Nova wrote:

> Anyway it just seemed strange that the first thing I went to do seemed
> no where near as straight forward as what was required on windows and
> for the majority of people that would be where it ends..
>
> I then decided to run the auto software updater, I ran it, it asked for
> the root password which i entered, it then sat there doing nothing for
> the next 10 minutes.. wonderful..
>
> Anyway as it is free it is still pretty cool but due to the lack of me
> favourite software being on the OS and having to go into the shell to
> upgrade a program seems i am not missing much really..


Linux is best updated using packages for the distro concerned.

For Fedora Core, you would use a *.rpm file.

That you could just double-click on and it would install the software.

For other distros, like Debian, you would double-click on a *.deb file.

The beauty of the system used in Debian is that if the package you want to
install needs some OTHER files not currently installed in order to run
properly, it will get those packages, too, and install them all in the
right order as well.

But to go to mozilla.org and download the generic Linux install file
intended for all distros and not part of any package management scheme,
then, yes....you do have to make yourself root and run the executable.

The "tar" thing is just to extract the install files from the compressed
archive they were downloaded in.

On my Xandros systems, I just right-click on the tar file in the File
Manager and select "extract all" from the pop-up menu.

Then pasting the "sh <filename of install-bin>" into a shell command prompt
and pressing enter isn't hard......




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