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=?Utf-8?B?U3Zlbg==?= 08-09-2005 07:25 PM

SATA install - floppy needed - why?
 
Here's what I don't understand...

With XP Professional x64, we are stepping into the 64-bit era, yet if you
want to install the OS on a SATA harddisk, one needs... a floppy. For those
of you who haven't been around all that long, floppies used to be the most
popular removable media before the age of the CD-RW. ;-)

I can understand that not all hardware vendors have provided Microsoft with
SATA drivers to be included on the installation CD, and that one needs to
load the missing drivers manually during the installation process, but I
can't understand why one has to provide a floppy with the drivers. What is
wrong with a CD? Can anyone give me a reasonalbe explanation.

Thanks.





Andre Da Costa [Extended64] 08-09-2005 07:38 PM

Re: SATA install - floppy needed - why?
 
This might help:
http://www.msfn.org/board/index.php?showtopic=13173
--
Andre
Extended64 | http://www.extended64.com
Blog | http://www.extended64.com/blogs/andre
http://spaces.msn.com/members/adacosta
FAQ for MS AntiSpy http://www.geocities.com/marfer_mvp/FAQ_MSantispy.htm

"Sven" <Sven@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:178A63E9-55FC-4801-979C-58394F4B311C@microsoft.com...
> Here's what I don't understand...
>
> With XP Professional x64, we are stepping into the 64-bit era, yet if you
> want to install the OS on a SATA harddisk, one needs... a floppy. For
> those
> of you who haven't been around all that long, floppies used to be the most
> popular removable media before the age of the CD-RW. ;-)
>
> I can understand that not all hardware vendors have provided Microsoft
> with
> SATA drivers to be included on the installation CD, and that one needs to
> load the missing drivers manually during the installation process, but I
> can't understand why one has to provide a floppy with the drivers. What is
> wrong with a CD? Can anyone give me a reasonalbe explanation.
>
> Thanks.
>
>
>
>




Charlie Russel - MVP 08-10-2005 01:02 AM

Re: SATA install - floppy needed - why?
 
I don't think anyone, including those inside MS, will tell you that they like
the situation. But here's my understanding of it -- the setup/install routine
has been around for a _very_ long time -- since Windows NT 3.1, the first
version of Windows NT. It is as bug free as anything can be by now. And a
_huge_ number of things are dependent on it, and expect it to work in a
certain way. So changing the code for it is not something done lightly, and
certainly not something done in a service pack release. (Keep in mind, x64
Edition is really only Windows Server 2003 SP1, but a 64-bit version of it.)

In the next major release of Windows, Windows Vista (client) and whatever the
server version is called, there will be an entirely new installation routine.
It will go through a rigorous and lengthy beta cycle, and people will have
time to change their code that depends on the way the current one functions.
But until then, we get to hunt around for a floppy if we're trying to install
on most (but not all) SATA controllers.

--
Please, all replies to the newsgroup.
======================
Charlie.
http://www.msmvps.com/xperts64/


Sven wrote:
> Here's what I don't understand...
>
> With XP Professional x64, we are stepping into the 64-bit era, yet if
> you want to install the OS on a SATA harddisk, one needs... a floppy.
> For those of you who haven't been around all that long, floppies used
> to be the most popular removable media before the age of the CD-RW.
> ;-)
>
> I can understand that not all hardware vendors have provided
> Microsoft with SATA drivers to be included on the installation CD,
> and that one needs to load the missing drivers manually during the
> installation process, but I can't understand why one has to provide a
> floppy with the drivers. What is wrong with a CD? Can anyone give me
> a reasonalbe explanation.
>
> Thanks.




Darrell Gorter[MSFT] 08-11-2005 07:12 PM

Re: SATA install - floppy needed - why?
 
Hello,
Charlie is correct. This is not an easy problem to solve in an the
existing operating system.
We understand the pain, however there isn't an easy solution available.
The underlying problem is that there is no OS to enumerate drives at that
stage of setup. We are just starting to load drivers.
We have to rely on the bios to supply us with drives and drive letters to
be able to access them.
We don't have an OS to locate drives, install drivers and file systems,
much less a way to parse the drive to locate files.
Currently all setup knows is to locate a particular file, at particular
locations, at the A: or B:, which are known locations and are supplied by
the BIOS either pointing to the floppy drive or an OEM virtual device:
896453 How to prevent virtual OEM device drivers from loading during the
http://support.microsoft.com/?id=896453


Thanks,
Darrell Gorter[MSFT]

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights
--------------------
<From: "Charlie Russel - MVP" <charlie@mvKILLALLSPAMMERSps.org>
<References: <178A63E9-55FC-4801-979C-58394F4B311C@microsoft.com>
<Subject: Re: SATA install - floppy needed - why?
<Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 18:02:26 -0700
<Lines: 42
<X-Priority: 3
<X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
<X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527
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<X-Tomcat-NG: microsoft.public.windows.64bit.general
<
<I don't think anyone, including those inside MS, will tell you that they
like
<the situation. But here's my understanding of it -- the setup/install
routine
<has been around for a _very_ long time -- since Windows NT 3.1, the first
<version of Windows NT. It is as bug free as anything can be by now. And a
<_huge_ number of things are dependent on it, and expect it to work in a
<certain way. So changing the code for it is not something done lightly,
and
<certainly not something done in a service pack release. (Keep in mind, x64
<Edition is really only Windows Server 2003 SP1, but a 64-bit version of
it.)
<
<In the next major release of Windows, Windows Vista (client) and whatever
the
<server version is called, there will be an entirely new installation
routine.
<It will go through a rigorous and lengthy beta cycle, and people will have
<time to change their code that depends on the way the current one
functions.
<But until then, we get to hunt around for a floppy if we're trying to
install
<on most (but not all) SATA controllers.
<
<--
<Please, all replies to the newsgroup.
<======================
<Charlie.
<http://www.msmvps.com/xperts64/
<
<
<Sven wrote:
<> Here's what I don't understand...
<>
<> With XP Professional x64, we are stepping into the 64-bit era, yet if
<> you want to install the OS on a SATA harddisk, one needs... a floppy.
<> For those of you who haven't been around all that long, floppies used
<> to be the most popular removable media before the age of the CD-RW.
<> ;-)
<>
<> I can understand that not all hardware vendors have provided
<> Microsoft with SATA drivers to be included on the installation CD,
<> and that one needs to load the missing drivers manually during the
<> installation process, but I can't understand why one has to provide a
<> floppy with the drivers. What is wrong with a CD? Can anyone give me
<> a reasonalbe explanation.
<>
<> Thanks.
<
<
<


Charlie Russel - MVP 08-12-2005 04:55 PM

Re: SATA install - floppy needed - why?
 
Just so you know, I treasure those "Charlie is correct" messages. :)

--
Please, all replies to the newsgroup.
======================
Charlie.
http://www.msmvps.com/xperts64/


"Darrell Gorter[MSFT]" wrote:
> Hello,
> Charlie is correct. This is not an easy problem to solve in an the
> existing operating system.
> We understand the pain, however there isn't an easy solution
> available. The underlying problem is that there is no OS to enumerate
> drives at that stage of setup. We are just starting to load drivers.
> We have to rely on the bios to supply us with drives and drive
> letters to be able to access them.
> We don't have an OS to locate drives, install drivers and file
> systems, much less a way to parse the drive to locate files.
> Currently all setup knows is to locate a particular file, at
> particular locations, at the A: or B:, which are known locations and
> are supplied by the BIOS either pointing to the floppy drive or an
> OEM virtual device: 896453 How to prevent virtual OEM device drivers
> from loading during the http://support.microsoft.com/?id=896453
>
>
> Thanks,
> Darrell Gorter[MSFT]
>
> This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
> rights --------------------
> <From: "Charlie Russel - MVP" <charlie@mvKILLALLSPAMMERSps.org>
> <References: <178A63E9-55FC-4801-979C-58394F4B311C@microsoft.com>
> <Subject: Re: SATA install - floppy needed - why?
> <Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 18:02:26 -0700
> <Lines: 42
> <X-Priority: 3
> <X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
> <X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527
> <X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527
> <X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original
> <Message-ID: <OWEYucUnFHA.2904@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl>
> <Newsgroups: microsoft.public.windows.64bit.general
> <NNTP-Posting-Host: h24-207-96-14.cst.dccnet.com 24.207.96.14
> <Path: TK2MSFTNGXA01.phx.gbl!TK2MSFTNGP08.phx.gbl!TK2MSFT NGP14.phx.gbl
> <Xref: TK2MSFTNGXA01.phx.gbl
> microsoft.public.windows.64bit.general:14459 <X-Tomcat-NG:
> microsoft.public.windows.64bit.general <
> <I don't think anyone, including those inside MS, will tell you that
> they like
> <the situation. But here's my understanding of it -- the setup/install
> routine
> <has been around for a _very_ long time -- since Windows NT 3.1, the
> first <version of Windows NT. It is as bug free as anything can be by
> now. And a <_huge_ number of things are dependent on it, and expect
> it to work in a <certain way. So changing the code for it is not
> something done lightly, and
> <certainly not something done in a service pack release. (Keep in
> mind, x64 <Edition is really only Windows Server 2003 SP1, but a
> 64-bit version of it.)
> <
> <In the next major release of Windows, Windows Vista (client) and
> whatever the
> <server version is called, there will be an entirely new installation
> routine.
> <It will go through a rigorous and lengthy beta cycle, and people
> will have <time to change their code that depends on the way the
> current one functions.
> <But until then, we get to hunt around for a floppy if we're trying to
> install
> <on most (but not all) SATA controllers.
> <
> <--
> <Please, all replies to the newsgroup.
> <======================
> <Charlie.
> <http://www.msmvps.com/xperts64/
> <
> <
> <Sven wrote:
> <> Here's what I don't understand...
> <>
> <> With XP Professional x64, we are stepping into the 64-bit era, yet
> if <> you want to install the OS on a SATA harddisk, one needs... a
> floppy. <> For those of you who haven't been around all that long,
> floppies used <> to be the most popular removable media before the
> age of the CD-RW. <> ;-)
> <>
> <> I can understand that not all hardware vendors have provided
> <> Microsoft with SATA drivers to be included on the installation CD,
> <> and that one needs to load the missing drivers manually during the
> <> installation process, but I can't understand why one has to
> provide a <> floppy with the drivers. What is wrong with a CD? Can
> anyone give me <> a reasonalbe explanation.
> <>
> <> Thanks.
> <
> <
> <




Franko 10-11-2005 01:36 AM

Re: SATA install - floppy needed - why?
 
Hello Darrel,

How about the Windows Pre-Installation Environment - WinPE? Maybe USB
support? Can you find a BIOS that does not support USB and 64bit? I'm
curious.

Franko American
""Darrell Gorter[MSFT]"" <Darrellg@online.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:0CXiXiqnFHA.944@TK2MSFTNGXA01.phx.gbl...
> Hello,
> Charlie is correct. This is not an easy problem to solve in an the
> existing operating system.
> We understand the pain, however there isn't an easy solution available.
> The underlying problem is that there is no OS to enumerate drives at that
> stage of setup. We are just starting to load drivers.
> We have to rely on the bios to supply us with drives and drive letters to
> be able to access them.
> We don't have an OS to locate drives, install drivers and file systems,
> much less a way to parse the drive to locate files.
> Currently all setup knows is to locate a particular file, at particular
> locations, at the A: or B:, which are known locations and are supplied by
> the BIOS either pointing to the floppy drive or an OEM virtual device:
> 896453 How to prevent virtual OEM device drivers from loading during the
> http://support.microsoft.com/?id=896453
>
>
> Thanks,
> Darrell Gorter[MSFT]
>
> This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights
> --------------------
> <From: "Charlie Russel - MVP" <charlie@mvKILLALLSPAMMERSps.org>
> <References: <178A63E9-55FC-4801-979C-58394F4B311C@microsoft.com>
> <Subject: Re: SATA install - floppy needed - why?
> <Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 18:02:26 -0700
> <Lines: 42
> <X-Priority: 3
> <X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
> <X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527
> <X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527
> <X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original
> <Message-ID: <OWEYucUnFHA.2904@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl>
> <Newsgroups: microsoft.public.windows.64bit.general
> <NNTP-Posting-Host: h24-207-96-14.cst.dccnet.com 24.207.96.14
> <Path: TK2MSFTNGXA01.phx.gbl!TK2MSFTNGP08.phx.gbl!TK2MSFT NGP14.phx.gbl
> <Xref: TK2MSFTNGXA01.phx.gbl microsoft.public.windows.64bit.general:14459
> <X-Tomcat-NG: microsoft.public.windows.64bit.general
> <
> <I don't think anyone, including those inside MS, will tell you that they
> like
> <the situation. But here's my understanding of it -- the setup/install
> routine
> <has been around for a _very_ long time -- since Windows NT 3.1, the first
> <version of Windows NT. It is as bug free as anything can be by now. And a
> <_huge_ number of things are dependent on it, and expect it to work in a
> <certain way. So changing the code for it is not something done lightly,
> and
> <certainly not something done in a service pack release. (Keep in mind,
> x64
> <Edition is really only Windows Server 2003 SP1, but a 64-bit version of
> it.)
> <
> <In the next major release of Windows, Windows Vista (client) and whatever
> the
> <server version is called, there will be an entirely new installation
> routine.
> <It will go through a rigorous and lengthy beta cycle, and people will
> have
> <time to change their code that depends on the way the current one
> functions.
> <But until then, we get to hunt around for a floppy if we're trying to
> install
> <on most (but not all) SATA controllers.
> <
> <--
> <Please, all replies to the newsgroup.
> <======================
> <Charlie.
> <http://www.msmvps.com/xperts64/
> <
> <
> <Sven wrote:
> <> Here's what I don't understand...
> <>
> <> With XP Professional x64, we are stepping into the 64-bit era, yet if
> <> you want to install the OS on a SATA harddisk, one needs... a floppy.
> <> For those of you who haven't been around all that long, floppies used
> <> to be the most popular removable media before the age of the CD-RW.
> <> ;-)
> <>
> <> I can understand that not all hardware vendors have provided
> <> Microsoft with SATA drivers to be included on the installation CD,
> <> and that one needs to load the missing drivers manually during the
> <> installation process, but I can't understand why one has to provide a
> <> floppy with the drivers. What is wrong with a CD? Can anyone give me
> <> a reasonalbe explanation.
> <>
> <> Thanks.
> <
> <
> <
>




Darrell Gorter[MSFT] 10-11-2005 02:43 AM

Re: SATA install - floppy needed - why?
 
Hello Frank,
It's been awhile since I saw your name.
Not quite sure what the question is below.
Setup supports looking for a txtsetup.oem file on the A or B drives when
booting from the CD.
So you are running Winnt32.exe while in WinPE, which doesn't look for a
txtsetup.oem file.
After the reboot, WinPE is no longer available, you are in setup.
So whatever drives were available in WinPE are no longer present.
Thanks,
Darrell Gorter[MSFT]

This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights
--------------------
<From: "Franko" <fchidsey@bellsouth.net>
<References: <178A63E9-55FC-4801-979C-58394F4B311C@microsoft.com>
<OWEYucUnFHA.2904@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl>
<0CXiXiqnFHA.944@TK2MSFTNGXA01.phx.gbl>
<Subject: Re: SATA install - floppy needed - why?
<Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2005 21:36:04 -0400
<Lines: 104
<X-Priority: 3
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<
<Hello Darrel,
<
<How about the Windows Pre-Installation Environment - WinPE? Maybe USB
<support? Can you find a BIOS that does not support USB and 64bit? I'm
<curious.
<
<Franko American
<""Darrell Gorter[MSFT]"" <Darrellg@online.microsoft.com> wrote in message
<news:0CXiXiqnFHA.944@TK2MSFTNGXA01.phx.gbl...
<> Hello,
<> Charlie is correct. This is not an easy problem to solve in an the
<> existing operating system.
<> We understand the pain, however there isn't an easy solution available.
<> The underlying problem is that there is no OS to enumerate drives at that
<> stage of setup. We are just starting to load drivers.
<> We have to rely on the bios to supply us with drives and drive letters to
<> be able to access them.
<> We don't have an OS to locate drives, install drivers and file systems,
<> much less a way to parse the drive to locate files.
<> Currently all setup knows is to locate a particular file, at particular
<> locations, at the A: or B:, which are known locations and are supplied by
<> the BIOS either pointing to the floppy drive or an OEM virtual device:
<> 896453 How to prevent virtual OEM device drivers from loading during the
<> http://support.microsoft.com/?id=896453
<>
<>
<> Thanks,
<> Darrell Gorter[MSFT]
<>
<> This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
rights
<> --------------------
<> <From: "Charlie Russel - MVP" <charlie@mvKILLALLSPAMMERSps.org>
<> <References: <178A63E9-55FC-4801-979C-58394F4B311C@microsoft.com>
<> <Subject: Re: SATA install - floppy needed - why?
<> <Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2005 18:02:26 -0700
<> <Lines: 42
<> <X-Priority: 3
<> <X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
<> <X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2527
<> <X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527
<> <X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original
<> <Message-ID: <OWEYucUnFHA.2904@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl>
<> <Newsgroups: microsoft.public.windows.64bit.general
<> <NNTP-Posting-Host: h24-207-96-14.cst.dccnet.com 24.207.96.14
<> <Path: TK2MSFTNGXA01.phx.gbl!TK2MSFTNGP08.phx.gbl!TK2MSFT NGP14.phx.gbl
<> <Xref: TK2MSFTNGXA01.phx.gbl microsoft.public.windows.64bit.general:14459
<> <X-Tomcat-NG: microsoft.public.windows.64bit.general
<> <
<> <I don't think anyone, including those inside MS, will tell you that they
<> like
<> <the situation. But here's my understanding of it -- the setup/install
<> routine
<> <has been around for a _very_ long time -- since Windows NT 3.1, the
first
<> <version of Windows NT. It is as bug free as anything can be by now. And
a
<> <_huge_ number of things are dependent on it, and expect it to work in a
<> <certain way. So changing the code for it is not something done lightly,
<> and
<> <certainly not something done in a service pack release. (Keep in mind,
<> x64
<> <Edition is really only Windows Server 2003 SP1, but a 64-bit version of
<> it.)
<> <
<> <In the next major release of Windows, Windows Vista (client) and
whatever
<> the
<> <server version is called, there will be an entirely new installation
<> routine.
<> <It will go through a rigorous and lengthy beta cycle, and people will
<> have
<> <time to change their code that depends on the way the current one
<> functions.
<> <But until then, we get to hunt around for a floppy if we're trying to
<> install
<> <on most (but not all) SATA controllers.
<> <
<> <--
<> <Please, all replies to the newsgroup.
<> <======================
<> <Charlie.
<> <http://www.msmvps.com/xperts64/
<> <
<> <
<> <Sven wrote:
<> <> Here's what I don't understand...
<> <>
<> <> With XP Professional x64, we are stepping into the 64-bit era, yet if
<> <> you want to install the OS on a SATA harddisk, one needs... a floppy.
<> <> For those of you who haven't been around all that long, floppies used
<> <> to be the most popular removable media before the age of the CD-RW.
<> <> ;-)
<> <>
<> <> I can understand that not all hardware vendors have provided
<> <> Microsoft with SATA drivers to be included on the installation CD,
<> <> and that one needs to load the missing drivers manually during the
<> <> installation process, but I can't understand why one has to provide a
<> <> floppy with the drivers. What is wrong with a CD? Can anyone give me
<> <> a reasonalbe explanation.
<> <>
<> <> Thanks.
<> <
<> <
<> <
<>
<
<
<



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