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rmckeever@gmail.com 03-24-2007 12:54 PM

Surge Protector Question
 
I live in an old house where the wiring is not grounded, if I use
a surge protector for my PC where I use an 3-prong to 2-prong adaptor
to plug the surge protector into the wall outlet, will the surge
protector
still function properly, or will not having it grounded make it
useless?


Whiskers 03-24-2007 01:29 PM

Re: Surge Protector Question
 
On 2007-03-24, rmckeever@gmail.com <rmckeever@gmail.com> wrote:
> I live in an old house where the wiring is not grounded, if I use
> a surge protector for my PC where I use an 3-prong to 2-prong adaptor
> to plug the surge protector into the wall outlet, will the surge
> protector
> still function properly, or will not having it grounded make it
> useless?


That's the least of your problems. Get the house re-wired properly.

--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~

Leythos 03-24-2007 01:47 PM

Re: Surge Protector Question
 
On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 05:54:51 -0700, rmckeever wrote:
>
> I live in an old house where the wiring is not grounded, if I use
> a surge protector for my PC where I use an 3-prong to 2-prong adaptor
> to plug the surge protector into the wall outlet, will the surge
> protector
> still function properly, or will not having it grounded make it
> useless?


The surge, where you protect from either leg to ground will not do
anything for you. Only the surge between the two wires will be given any
limited protection, depending on the actual device.

Without a REAL GROUND you are almost unprotected, and considering most
surges, you are completely unprotected against those types.

Get a contractor to install a properly grounded system for you, you don't
have to do all rooms (but that would be best), but get the ones where your
TV, Computer, Video/Audio, etc... hardware are installed.


--
Leythos
spam999free@rrohio.com (remove 999 for proper email address)

SgtMinor 03-24-2007 02:26 PM

Re: Surge Protector Question
 
rmckeever@gmail.com wrote:
> I live in an old house where the wiring is not grounded, if I use
> a surge protector for my PC where I use an 3-prong to 2-prong adaptor
> to plug the surge protector into the wall outlet, will the surge
> protector
> still function properly, or will not having it grounded make it
> useless?
>


The surge protector will not work as designed without a proper ground.
But just because the house has ungrounded receptacles does not mean you
are in danger. You can still install GFCI receptacles if you mark them
as being ungrounded, and be protected from electrocution.

For your computer installation consider buying a battery backup system.
It will clean up most of the irregularity in the electricity supply
and it's probably less expensive than having a new circuit installed.

rmckeever@gmail.com 03-24-2007 03:19 PM

Re: Surge Protector Question
 
On Mar 24, 9:26 am, SgtMinor <S...@the.old.folks.home.invalid> wrote:
> rmckee...@gmail.com wrote:
> > I live in an old house where the wiring is not grounded, if I use
> > a surge protector for my PC where I use an 3-prong to 2-prong adaptor
> > to plug the surge protector into the wall outlet, will the surge
> > protector
> > still function properly, or will not having it grounded make it
> > useless?

>
> The surge protector will not work as designed without a proper ground.
> But just because the house has ungrounded receptacles does not mean you
> are in danger. You can still install GFCI receptacles if you mark them
> as being ungrounded, and be protected from electrocution.
>
> For your computer installation consider buying a battery backup system.
> It will clean up most of the irregularity in the electricity supply
> and it's probably less expensive than having a new circuit installed.


Thanks for all the help, it's not my house so rewiring is out of the
question,
guess I'll get the backup.


Leythos 03-24-2007 03:24 PM

Re: Surge Protector Question
 
On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 08:19:13 -0700, rmckeever wrote:

> On Mar 24, 9:26 am, SgtMinor <S...@the.old.folks.home.invalid> wrote:
>> rmckee...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > I live in an old house where the wiring is not grounded, if I use
>> > a surge protector for my PC where I use an 3-prong to 2-prong adaptor
>> > to plug the surge protector into the wall outlet, will the surge
>> > protector
>> > still function properly, or will not having it grounded make it
>> > useless?

>>
>> The surge protector will not work as designed without a proper ground.
>> But just because the house has ungrounded receptacles does not mean you
>> are in danger. You can still install GFCI receptacles if you mark them
>> as being ungrounded, and be protected from electrocution.
>>
>> For your computer installation consider buying a battery backup system.
>> It will clean up most of the irregularity in the electricity supply
>> and it's probably less expensive than having a new circuit installed.

>
> Thanks for all the help, it's not my house so rewiring is out of the
> question,
> guess I'll get the backup.


A battery backup will only help you if you have problems with keeping
power ON or if you have noise on the power lines - but, many UPS devices
that are cheap don't actually clean the power, so make sure you get one
that does.

A UPS without a ground provides little or no protection agaisnt the common
surges that you want to be protected from.

--
Leythos
spam999free@rrohio.com (remove 999 for proper email address)

Jerry G. 03-24-2007 08:09 PM

Re: Surge Protector Question
 
What you really need is a UPS, and have a ground installed for the
computer outlet. These surge protectors are really a waste of money,
because they cannot work with brown-outs which do the most damage.

The power supply in the computer must meet UL, CSA, and EC standards.
This also means that there is built in serge protection already.

With a UPS, if there is a brown-out, or the power becomes out of
specifications, the inverter in the UPS will be switched in, and the
computer will keep going as if nothing ever happened to the power line.

--

Jerry G.


<rmckeever@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1174740890.965854.257220@y80g2000hsf.googlegr oups.com...
I live in an old house where the wiring is not grounded, if I use
a surge protector for my PC where I use an 3-prong to 2-prong adaptor
to plug the surge protector into the wall outlet, will the surge
protector
still function properly, or will not having it grounded make it
useless?



The Old Sourdough 03-24-2007 09:25 PM

Re: Surge Protector Question
 
On 2007-03-24, in 24hoursupport.helpdesk, Whiskers waxed eloquently:
> On 2007-03-24, rmckeever@gmail.com <rmckeever@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I live in an old house where the wiring is not grounded, if I use
>> a surge protector for my PC where I use an 3-prong to 2-prong adaptor
>> to plug the surge protector into the wall outlet, will the surge
>> protector
>> still function properly, or will not having it grounded make it
>> useless?

>
> That's the least of your problems. Get the house re-wired properly.
>


I'll agree with that. Get the landlord to fix it right. Or find
another place to live before the place burns down or someone is
electrocuted.

(Aside to Whiskers) Ever seen one of those old places with ungrounded
wiring and fused neutrals? And someone blows the neutral fuse, and
replaces it with a higher-rated fuse than is on the hot side? Now
that can be a real killer.


--
The Old Sourdough
Man is a military animal, glories in gunpowder, and loves parade.
-- P.J. Bailey

Whiskers 03-24-2007 10:30 PM

Re: Surge Protector Question
 
On 2007-03-24, The Old Sourdough <senile@all.times> wrote:
> On 2007-03-24, in 24hoursupport.helpdesk, Whiskers waxed eloquently:
>> On 2007-03-24, rmckeever@gmail.com <rmckeever@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I live in an old house where the wiring is not grounded, if I use
>>> a surge protector for my PC where I use an 3-prong to 2-prong adaptor
>>> to plug the surge protector into the wall outlet, will the surge
>>> protector
>>> still function properly, or will not having it grounded make it
>>> useless?

>>
>> That's the least of your problems. Get the house re-wired properly.
>>

>
> I'll agree with that. Get the landlord to fix it right. Or find
> another place to live before the place burns down or someone is
> electrocuted.
>
> (Aside to Whiskers) Ever seen one of those old places with ungrounded
> wiring and fused neutrals? And someone blows the neutral fuse, and
> replaces it with a higher-rated fuse than is on the hot side? Now
> that can be a real killer.


I don't think it has ever been legal to have no working 'earth' connection
on a mains electrical installation here in the UK - but I have seen some
pretty scary DIY stuff, including 'anything made of metal' used in the
main fuse-box, in rented rooms. 250 volts does more than make you tingle!
I've also come across a 3KW heater plugged in via a 5-amp 'extension'
cable - the flex was smoking when I saw it. I think people should have to
qualify for a licence before being allowed to use any appliance that needs
more that 12 volts or 1 amp.

--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~

w_tom 03-25-2007 12:41 AM

Re: Surge Protector Question
 
On Mar 24, 11:19 am, rmckee...@gmail.com wrote:
> Thanks for all the help, it's not my house so rewiring is out of the
> question,
> guess I'll get the backup


First, battery backup has same circuit found in power strip
protectors. Why would that be any better protection? Furthermore,
joules rating is so low as to be equivalent to zero protection. IOW
they put in just enough to claim a surge protector circuit on color
glossy propaganda - and hope you don't notice that number is essential
zero.

Second, let's assume a plug-in protector will ground a surge. OK.
So that surge will travel back a safety ground wire that is bundled
with other wires. Now a transient is induces on all those other wires
and other appliances. Where is the protection? They hope you don't
notice another fact. It does not even claim to protect from surges
that 1) typically do damage and 2) require earthing to eliminate.
Just a second reason why effective protection is not provided. Yes,
near zero protection is sufficient to claim it protects - and why they
hope you will confuse safety ground with earth ground.

Safety grounds on wall receptacles will not provide surge
protection. It's called a safety ground or equipment ground- not
earth ground - for good reason. Effective protection has always been
about *earthing* BEFORE a transient can enter a building. Last
paragraph summarizes a complete solution. One superior 'whole house'
protector not only cost tens of times less money per protected
appliance. Effective protector also has that dedicated earthing wire
- an essential 'less than 10 foot' connection.

No reason to rewire a building. No earth ground (not just any
ground) means no effective protection. Rewire an entire building and
not upgrade the earthing? Then still have no effective protection.
Why? Earthing is the protection. Upgrade breaker box earthing to
both meet and exceed post 1990 National Electrical Code requirements.
That means an earthing electrode (ie ground rod) 'less than 10 feet'
from the AC mains box. That also means all other utilities must make
that same 'less than 10 foot' connection to earthing before entering
the building.

Meanwhile, what did some here forget to mention? Necessary is not
just any ground. Required is a single point *earth* ground. Those who
ignored "earthing" were also promoting mythical solutions. After
all, what does lightning seek when it destroys household appliances?
Earth ground. What happens to that direct lightning strike that does
not damage appliances? It gets earthed before entering a building.

Why does you telco with overhead wires everywhere in town not
disconnect their switching computer during every thunderstorm? They
do same earthing. Best protector is only feet from earthing and up to
50 meters from the computer. Again - 'whole house' protector. Every
wire connects to earth ground before entering the building. That '50
meter' separation is also part of the protection. Why is your telco
service not down all week to replace their computer? Typically 100
direct strikes to a CO over a 5 month period results in no damage when
earthing - not a plug-in protector - provides protection. Learn how
real world protection was routinely installed long before WWII. A
solution that costs tens of times less money per appliance. A
solution denied by those who promote a plug-in myth.

A protector is not protection. When promoting ineffective solutions
to the naive, others here have and will promote a protector as
protection. Reality: a protector is a connecting device to
protection. What is the protection? Earth ground.

Install that earth ground. A water pipe is typically not sufficient
- too far away, not sufficient even for post 1990 NEC requirements,
and other problems. Earthing connection must be 'less than 10
feet' ... either via a hardwire or via a surge protector ... to that
single point ground.

Every name in this following list should be known to you as
responsible manufacturers. Manufacturers of 'whole house' protectors:
GE, Siemens, Square D, Leviton, Intermatic, and Cutler-Hammer. Each
protector also has the critical and dedicated earthing wire which is
why building earth ground must be upgraded. Effective 'whole house'
protector is sold even in Lowes and Home Depot. One protector.
Superior protection. Less money. No safety ground outlets. Just a
few reasons why this is your solution.

Where have ineffective protectors been seen? Sears, K-mart, Wal-
mart, Radio Shack, Circuit City, Staples, Best Buy, Office Max, and
your grocery store. The grocery store protector is a same circuit
sold in Circuit City for $100+. But then this paragraph is about
ineffective protectors. How do you know it is ineffective? Where is
a dedicated earthing wire? Where do they discuss "earth" ground?
They don't. Such protectors are promoted by myths.

Soon will arrive a troll who claims earth ground is not necessary
for protection. He will 'cut and paste' his routine half truths.
Then a long post will demonstrate facts he forget to mention. How to
identify ineffective protectors and posts that promote myths? Where
do they discuss that 'less than 10 foot' connection to earth? No
earth ground (what lightning seeks) means no effective protection.
No, that wall receptacle safety ground is too far away, bundled with
too many wires, and so many other reasons to be ineffective earthing.

Upgrade earthing to exceed post 1990 NEC code requirements. Install
a 'whole house' protector. Connect all other utilities (that
telephone company "installed for free" 'whole house' protector and the
cable) 'less than 10 feet' to same earth ground. A superior solution
that costs tens and maybe thousands times less money. Meanwhile even
that battery backup does not claim to protect from typically
destructive surges. How do you know? Where is the dedicated earthing
wire? No earth ground means no effective protection.




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