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=?ISO-8859-15?Q?Juli=E1n?= Albo 01-08-2007 04:04 PM

FAQ or not FAQ?
 
Hello.

The welcome message of this group says:

"The comp.lang.c++ FAQ is available at
http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lite/"

However, nothing in that FAQ mentions that is FAQ of this newsgroup, it
calls itself "the C++ FAQ Lite". And the current thread about the [ ] [ ]
usages and others in the past shows that the document in question does not
refelect the consensus of the group, and thus does not play well the role
of FAQ of the group.

So I think that the quoted paragraph must be rewritten in order to not say
or give the impression that the C++ FAQ Lite is the FAQ of comp.lang.c++

Maybe we need a FAQ with just one point: "Is 'The C++ FAQ Lite' the FAQ of
comp.lang.c++?" ;-)

--
Salu2

Noah Roberts 01-08-2007 04:07 PM

Re: FAQ or not FAQ?
 

Julián Albo wrote:
> Hello.
>
> The welcome message of this group says:
>
> "The comp.lang.c++ FAQ is available at
> http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lite/"
>
> However, nothing in that FAQ mentions that is FAQ of this newsgroup, it
> calls itself "the C++ FAQ Lite". And the current thread about the [ ] [ ]
> usages and others in the past shows that the document in question does not
> refelect the consensus of the group, and thus does not play well the role
> of FAQ of the group.
>
> So I think that the quoted paragraph must be rewritten in order to not say
> or give the impression that the C++ FAQ Lite is the FAQ of comp.lang.c++
>
> Maybe we need a FAQ with just one point: "Is 'The C++ FAQ Lite' the FAQ of
> comp.lang.c++?" ;-)


This group is not moderated. Anyone can come in here and claim to have
written the newsgroup FAQ. The fact that nobody else has stepped up
and it keeps getting used by members in this group to answer questions
found within it show that it DOES reflect the concensus of the group.
The fact that a few people disagree very loudly about one particular
FAQ in it doesn't change this.


Victor Bazarov 01-08-2007 04:17 PM

Re: FAQ or not FAQ?
 
Julián Albo wrote:
> The welcome message of this group says:
>
> "The comp.lang.c++ FAQ is available at
> http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lite/"
>
> However, nothing in that FAQ mentions that is FAQ of this newsgroup,
> it calls itself "the C++ FAQ Lite". And the current thread about the
> [ ] [ ] usages and others in the past shows that the document in
> question does not refelect the consensus of the group, and thus does
> not play well the role of FAQ of the group.
>
> So I think that the quoted paragraph must be rewritten in order to
> not say or give the impression that the C++ FAQ Lite is the FAQ of
> comp.lang.c++
>
> Maybe we need a FAQ with just one point: "Is 'The C++ FAQ Lite' the
> FAQ of comp.lang.c++?" ;-)


In most cases the "C++ FAQ Lite" list (maintained by Marshall Cline)
acurately reflects the FAQ in c.l.c++. As to the answers, they can
be changed, contact Marshall Cline for that. As to the Welcome
message, it's here for convenience, and does reflect the consensus
about what to consider c.l.c++ FAQ, IMO. But we'll see, I guess...

V
--
Please remove capital 'A's when replying by e-mail
I do not respond to top-posted replies, please don't ask



Alf P. Steinbach 01-08-2007 04:33 PM

Re: FAQ or not FAQ?
 
* Julián Albo:
> Hello.
>
> The welcome message of this group says:
>
> "The comp.lang.c++ FAQ is available at
> http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lite/"
>
> However, nothing in that FAQ mentions that is FAQ of this newsgroup, it
> calls itself "the C++ FAQ Lite". And the current thread about the [ ] [ ]
> usages and others in the past shows that the document in question does not
> refelect the consensus of the group, and thus does not play well the role
> of FAQ of the group.
>
> So I think that the quoted paragraph must be rewritten in order to not say
> or give the impression that the C++ FAQ Lite is the FAQ of comp.lang.c++
>
> Maybe we need a FAQ with just one point: "Is 'The C++ FAQ Lite' the FAQ of
> comp.lang.c++?" ;-)


To be precise, it is the FAQ of [comp.lang.c++.moderated]; see <url:
http://www.gotw.ca/resources/clcm.htm>.

But as the FAQ of [comp.lang.c++.moderated] it serves well also as the
FAQ of [comp.lang.c++].

And, unless I've got my history entirely wrong, it became the FAQ of
[comp.lang.c++.moderated] because it was widely recognized as the FAQ of
[comp.lang.c++], and not surprisingly it's still widely recognized as
the FAQ of [comp.lang.c++]. But of course for this non-moderated group
it's all in the group mind ;-), it's all about recognition by the
community. If, say, Marshall for some reason was unable to maintain the
FAQ, and someone else took over, and the FAQ degenerated, and enough of
us then started referring to some other FAQ (that's a lot of
concatenated if's), then that other FAQ would be this group's FAQ, or
perhaps we'd then have two or more FAQs of quality like the current, and
then probably [comp.lang.c++.moderated] would follow suit.

--
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is it such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?

Daniel T. 01-08-2007 04:45 PM

Re: FAQ or not FAQ?
 
Julián Albo <JULIANALBO@terra.es> wrote:

> The welcome message of this group says:
>
> "The comp.lang.c++ FAQ is available at
> http://www.parashift.com/c++-faq-lite/"
>
> However, nothing in that FAQ mentions that is FAQ of this newsgroup, it
> calls itself "the C++ FAQ Lite". And the current thread about the [ ] [ ]
> usages and others in the past shows that the document in question does not
> refelect the consensus of the group, and thus does not play well the role
> of FAQ of the group.
>
> So I think that the quoted paragraph must be rewritten in order to not say
> or give the impression that the C++ FAQ Lite is the FAQ of comp.lang.c++
>
> Maybe we need a FAQ with just one point: "Is 'The C++ FAQ Lite' the FAQ of
> comp.lang.c++?" ;-)


There are things in the FAQ Lite that I don't agree with. With such an
extensive FAQ I expect there are things that many people don't agree
with. There are even things in it that the likes of Sutter and
Alexandrescu don't agree with.

I know of three FAQs for the C++ language. The one mentioned above,
http://www.comeaucomputing.com/techtalk/ and
http://www.research.att.com/~bs/bs_faq2.html. There is also Marshall
Cline's book C++ FAQs. There are also lots of sites like
http://www.cppreference.com/ and http://www.dinkumware.com/manuals/
which offer guidance but not in a Q&A format.

Every website including the FAQ Lite will reflect the prejudices,
experience and bias of the author. If you wish to author and maintain an
FAQ, I would love to read it and would be happy to contribute. :-)

Please understand Julián, this is not a moderated forum. There is no one
"in charge". Even the welcome message you speak of (I'm assuming you are
talking about the one that Shiva posts periodically) is just one
person's opinion.

=?ISO-8859-15?Q?Juli=E1n?= Albo 01-08-2007 05:46 PM

Re: FAQ or not FAQ?
 
Noah Roberts wrote:

>> So I think that the quoted paragraph must be rewritten in order to not
>> say or give the impression that the C++ FAQ Lite is the FAQ of
>> comp.lang.c++
>>
>> Maybe we need a FAQ with just one point: "Is 'The C++ FAQ Lite' the FAQ
>> of comp.lang.c++?" ;-)

>
> This group is not moderated. Anyone can come in here and claim to have
> written the newsgroup FAQ.


Yes. Are you proposing such type of solution?

> The fact that nobody else has stepped up and it keeps getting used
> by members in this group to answer questions found within it show
> that it DOES reflect the concensus of the group.


It does not shows such thing. Just shows that some points reflects it. Given
that reasoning, TC++PL can be also be announced as the FAQ of the group.

> The fact that a few people disagree very loudly about one particular
> FAQ in it doesn't change this.


The fact that a FAQ generates endlessly repetitions of the same type of
mesages instead of contribute to avoid him, change the purpose of the FAQ
concept.

--
Salu2

=?ISO-8859-15?Q?Juli=E1n?= Albo 01-08-2007 06:13 PM

Re: FAQ or not FAQ?
 
Daniel T. wrote:

> Please understand Julián, this is not a moderated forum. There is no one
> "in charge". Even the welcome message you speak of (I'm assuming you are
> talking about the one that Shiva posts periodically) is just one
> person's opinion.


I understand that. I'm just expressing my opinion that the current situation
present some problems, and that a tiny change of words in some messages can
aminorate it. This is not an attempt to disqualify the content of the C++
Lite FAQ or blame his author, is a constructive proposal. And I don't call
for an authority that imposes an official FAQ document, just for some
reflexion.

--
Salu2

=?ISO-8859-15?Q?Juli=E1n?= Albo 01-08-2007 06:27 PM

Re: FAQ or not FAQ?
 
Victor Bazarov wrote:

> In most cases the "C++ FAQ Lite" list (maintained by Marshall Cline)
> acurately reflects the FAQ in c.l.c++.


Yes, but a few are unnecessary polemic, and I think the cause of the
polemics can be his inadequate presentation as *the* FAQ of the group and a
little change will be useful. I can be wrong, of course.

> As to the Welcome message, it's here for convenience, and does reflect
> the consensus about what to consider c.l.c++ FAQ, IMO. But we'll see, I
> guess...


This is what I consider a problem, that the consensus looks to be not wide
enough, or maybe the consensus is more in the idea that is a good C++ FAQ
than in that is the group FAQ.

--
Salu2

Victor Bazarov 01-08-2007 06:38 PM

Re: FAQ or not FAQ?
 
Julián Albo wrote:
> Victor Bazarov wrote:
>
>> In most cases the "C++ FAQ Lite" list (maintained by Marshall Cline)
>> acurately reflects the FAQ in c.l.c++.

>
> Yes, but a few are unnecessary polemic, and I think the cause of the
> polemics can be his inadequate presentation as *the* FAQ of the group
> and a little change will be useful. I can be wrong, of course.
>
>> As to the Welcome message, it's here for convenience, and does
>> reflect the consensus about what to consider c.l.c++ FAQ, IMO. But
>> we'll see, I guess...

>
> This is what I consider a problem, that the consensus looks to be not
> wide enough, or maybe the consensus is more in the idea that is a
> good C++ FAQ than in that is the group FAQ.


Historically speaking, when article retention on newsservers was the
only source of past posts for Usenetizens, FAQ made sense and there was
a need in it. Right now, with Google Groups (inheriting from DejaNews)
the archives make existense of FAQ more trouble than its worth.

FAQ and FGA (Frequently Given Answers) are moving targets. Either the
lists have to be constantly changed or we accept discrepancies. Simple
as that. And when nobody really has the time or the motivation to keep
FAQ lists up to date, and considering the diversity of *available*
sources of information, the expectations need to be lowered.

V
--
Please remove capital 'A's when replying by e-mail
I do not respond to top-posted replies, please don't ask



=?ISO-8859-15?Q?Juli=E1n?= Albo 01-08-2007 07:05 PM

Re: FAQ or not FAQ?
 
Victor Bazarov wrote:

> FAQ and FGA (Frequently Given Answers) are moving targets. Either the
> lists have to be constantly changed or we accept discrepancies. Simple
> as that. And when nobody really has the time or the motivation to keep
> FAQ lists up to date, and considering the diversity of *available*
> sources of information, the expectations need to be lowered.


Maybe there is no practical solution, and maybe the problem is unimportant,
people can just ignore long threads that have no interest to him. However,
I still think that a few change of words can give some benefit.

--
Salu2


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