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Clint Kirk 01-16-2006 10:36 AM

Fuji's 5th generation Super CCD HR sensor
 
Hi,

Can anyone shed any light on how this new sensor works? Take, for
example, the 9MP one found on their E900 and S9000 (or S9500) cameras.
Fuji says this is 9 million effective pixels, and 9 million recorded
pixels, therefore there is no interpolation (such as there was on their
4th generation Super CCD HR sensors.)

But how can there not be interpolation? The sensor is still tilted at
45 degrees to the horizontal, so how can you produce 9 MP in a
horizontal/vertical orientation without interpolating and/or
resampling?

Clint


Graham Fountain 01-16-2006 12:40 PM

Re: Fuji's 5th generation Super CCD HR sensor
 
Clint Kirk wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Can anyone shed any light on how this new sensor works? Take, for
> example, the 9MP one found on their E900 and S9000 (or S9500) cameras.
> Fuji says this is 9 million effective pixels, and 9 million recorded
> pixels, therefore there is no interpolation (such as there was on their
> 4th generation Super CCD HR sensors.)
>
> But how can there not be interpolation? The sensor is still tilted at
> 45 degrees to the horizontal, so how can you produce 9 MP in a
> horizontal/vertical orientation without interpolating and/or
> resampling?

Every bayer sensor does interpolation of colour information, where every
pixel in the resulting image is interpolated out of the colour
information in that and surrounding pixels on the sensor. Fuji's Super
CCD does the same, the only difference being that the final pixel
doesn't have a direct positional relationship with 1 individual pixel on
the sensor. This is why previous SCCD's cameras had their standard
resolution and also a double resolution. In the double resolution mode,
each pixel was either interpolated or had a direct relationship with an
individual pixel. The end result is that for many images, an increase in
perceived resolution can be gained.
>
> Clint
>


ASAAR 01-16-2006 01:04 PM

Re: Fuji's 5th generation Super CCD HR sensor
 
On 16 Jan 2006 02:36:15 -0800, Clint Kirk wrote:

> Can anyone shed any light on how this new sensor works? Take, for
> example, the 9MP one found on their E900 and S9000 (or S9500)
> cameras. Fuji says this is 9 million effective pixels, and 9 million recorded
> pixels, therefore there is no interpolation (such as there was on their
> 4th generation Super CCD HR sensors.)
>
> But how can there not be interpolation? The sensor is still tilted at
> 45 degrees to the horizontal, so how can you produce 9 MP in a
> horizontal/vertical orientation without interpolating and/or
> resampling?


I can't shed much light on how Fuji's sensors work, but there's
interpolation and there's interpolation. In fact there needs to be
interpolation in *all* Bayer sensors, but that's of a different
kind. What Fuji means is that with their earlier generation Super
CCD sensors, you could take a particular one having, say, 6 million
actual pixels and have the camera set to save image files containing
only 6mp. Or you could enable interpolation which would then create
12mp image files. Naturally, the file size would double, and it
wouldn't come close to providing the detail that a true 12mp sensor
would. According to reviews, it did help slightly, maybe being
equivalent to a 6.3mp sensor, but the amount of improvement was
dependent on the subject matter. I recall some reviewers saying
that it helped least when dealing with horizontal and vertical
linear objects and did better when they were at some intermediate
angle. If the E900 and S9000/S9500 used the same (or similar) 9mp
sensors and created interpolated output files, they would be twice
as large, containing 18 million interpolated pixels, which few
people would find worth dealing with, cutting in half the number of
pictures you could store on flash cards, and slowing the operation
of photo editing on the computer. Sometimes enormously so, if the
computer's memory resources are borderline . . .


Siddhartha Jain 01-16-2006 02:41 PM

Re: Fuji's 5th generation Super CCD HR sensor
 

Clint Kirk wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Can anyone shed any light on how this new sensor works? Take, for
> example, the 9MP one found on their E900 and S9000 (or S9500) cameras.
> Fuji says this is 9 million effective pixels, and 9 million recorded
> pixels, therefore there is no interpolation (such as there was on their
> 4th generation Super CCD HR sensors.)
>
> But how can there not be interpolation? The sensor is still tilted at
> 45 degrees to the horizontal, so how can you produce 9 MP in a
> horizontal/vertical orientation without interpolating and/or
> resampling?
>
> Clint


I am more interested in knowing what have they done in the newer 1/1.7"
Super HR CCD sensor used in the Fuji F10/11 that makes it such a
low-noise sensor compared to other P&S cameras in its competition.

- Siddhartha


Clint Kirk 01-16-2006 04:42 PM

Re: Fuji's 5th generation Super CCD HR sensor
 
Thanks to everyone for the answer's, especially to Graham Fountain who
pointed out the interpolation done by all Bayer (i.e. mosaic filter)
sensors. Actually, I was trying to simplify my question by assuming,
for now, that the CCD was monochrome, and once that was answered I
would interpolate (no pun intended) the answer to include the colour
information by thinking about the effects of the mosaic filter.

In the end, as Graham pointed out, all Bayer sensors interpolate anyway
(they interpolate two out of the three colour values in each pixel).
So, since every pixel is interpolated in all such sensors (not just
Fuji's ones) then it's really not such a shame that every pixel in
Fuji's new sensor is also interpolated. Is my understanding correct?

Clint


Bill Funk 01-16-2006 05:11 PM

Re: Fuji's 5th generation Super CCD HR sensor
 
On 16 Jan 2006 08:42:37 -0800, "Clint Kirk" <mt16rnt02@sneakemail.com>
wrote:

>Thanks to everyone for the answer's, especially to Graham Fountain who
>pointed out the interpolation done by all Bayer (i.e. mosaic filter)
>sensors. Actually, I was trying to simplify my question by assuming,
>for now, that the CCD was monochrome, and once that was answered I
>would interpolate (no pun intended) the answer to include the colour
>information by thinking about the effects of the mosaic filter.
>
>In the end, as Graham pointed out, all Bayer sensors interpolate anyway
>(they interpolate two out of the three colour values in each pixel).
>So, since every pixel is interpolated in all such sensors (not just
>Fuji's ones) then it's really not such a shame that every pixel in
>Fuji's new sensor is also interpolated. Is my understanding correct?
>
>Clint


No.
There's a difference between "pixel" and "color in a pixel."
Bayer-filtered sensor cameras interpolate the chroma in pixels, not
the pixels.
In the Fuji, the actual pixels are interpolated, because the pixels in
the sensor and in the final image are entirely different. There's no
way the sensor's sensel layout can be made into a rectangular format
without interpolating the pixels themselves.
This isn't intended to be a comment or complaint about Fuji's system,
just a comment that the pixels themselves are interpolated.

--
Bill Funk
Replace "g" with "a"
funktionality.blogspot.com

Dave Martindale 01-17-2006 10:03 PM

Re: Fuji's 5th generation Super CCD HR sensor
 
"Clint Kirk" <mt16rnt02@sneakemail.com> writes:
>Hi,
>
>Can anyone shed any light on how this new sensor works? Take, for
>example, the 9MP one found on their E900 and S9000 (or S9500) cameras.
>Fuji says this is 9 million effective pixels, and 9 million recorded
>pixels, therefore there is no interpolation (such as there was on their
>4th generation Super CCD HR sensors.)


>But how can there not be interpolation? The sensor is still tilted at
>45 degrees to the horizontal, so how can you produce 9 MP in a
>horizontal/vertical orientation without interpolating and/or
>resampling?


In recent Fuji sensors, half the sensor locations have relatively large
sensors that have good light sensitivity with high effective ISO to
capture detail in shadows, and the other half are small sensors with
low ISO to capture highlight detail without burning out. So a "9 MP"
sensor is really 4.5 MP of high-sensitivity locations plus 4.5 MP of
low-sensitivity locations.

In earlier versions of this, the little low-ISO sensors were placed
close to the high-ISO sensors and are probably better regarded as a pair
located in one place. They were located in a rotated square grid, so
(as usual with Fuji), needed interpolation to get a row/column raster
for the image file without losing any resolution. So it was a 4.5 MP
sensor interpolated up to 9 MP, as usual, with a nearly-coincident 4.5
MP second sensor for highlight information.

The latest designs seem to place the small sensors halfway between the
large ones, like the white and black squares on a checkerboard. So, at
the least, each output pixel is actually located at a place where there
is a sensing element on the sensor. But half of them capture only
high-brightness components and the other half capture only
low-brightness components, so interpolation is still necessary to
produce a full dynamic range at each pixel.

On the other hand, there now are 9 million separate measuring locations
in a "9 MP" sensor. In theory, the sensor could have resolution
equalling that of a standard 9 MP sensor with 9 million identical
measuring cells, at least for the midtone portions of the image that
can be handled by both the small and large cells. So it would be very
interesting looking at some resolution tests.

Dave


Clint Kirk 01-18-2006 01:52 PM

Re: Fuji's 5th generation Super CCD HR sensor
 
That's very interesting. It got me thinking what it would look like
once you've put the colour filter on top.



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