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-   -   Can Vonage et al be used FROM foreign countries? (http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/t39900-can-vonage-et-al-be-used-from-foreign-countries.html)

Ramon F Herrera 07-03-2005 09:55 PM

Can Vonage et al be used FROM foreign countries?
 
I was told something that I find hard to believe:
Supposedly Vonage and the other VoIP telcos perform a traceroute and if
they determine that the SIP phone's IP address is outside the US (and
that's VERY hard to determine), then the service is not provided.

Any truth to that?

-Ramon


Scooby 07-04-2005 06:28 PM

Re: Can Vonage et al be used FROM foreign countries?
 
It is not difficult to tell what country you are in based on your IP
address. However, Vonage does not restrict on this basis. There are other
concerns though, here is an FAQ from vonage:

http://www.vonage.com/help.php?artic...egory=53&nav=6

You'd have to check with each voip provider to see if they restrict based on
country.

Hope that helps,

Jim


"Ramon F Herrera" <ramon@conexus.net> wrote in message
news:1120427744.309332.214160@g47g2000cwa.googlegr oups.com...
> I was told something that I find hard to believe:
> Supposedly Vonage and the other VoIP telcos perform a traceroute and if
> they determine that the SIP phone's IP address is outside the US (and
> that's VERY hard to determine), then the service is not provided.
>
> Any truth to that?
>
> -Ramon
>




Walter Roberson 07-04-2005 06:50 PM

Re: Can Vonage et al be used FROM foreign countries?
 
In article <Jdfye.3683$aY6.933@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.n et>,
Scooby <mmscooby1@removeme.earthlink.net> wrote:
:It is not difficult to tell what country you are in based on your IP
:address.

Well, in about the same sense that the Sun is not "mildly warm".

In the general case, it not possible to tell what country you are
in based on your IP address.

When I go and visit my relatives in the USA, and I dial up
work (in Canada), and perform activities from behind our NAT'ing
firewall, then exactly what mechanism exists that can not only
bypass our firewall to get information, but can also tell from
the IP address alone whether I'm dialing up work from Alberta or Alabama
or Albania ?
--
"Mathematics? I speak it like a native." -- Spike Milligan

Arnold Nipper 07-04-2005 07:16 PM

Re: Can Vonage et al be used FROM foreign countries?
 
On 04.07.2005 20:50 Walter Roberson wrote

> In article <Jdfye.3683$aY6.933@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.n et>,
> Scooby <mmscooby1@removeme.earthlink.net> wrote:
> :It is not difficult to tell what country you are in based on your IP
> :address.
>
> Well, in about the same sense that the Sun is not "mildly warm".
>
> In the general case, it not possible to tell what country you are
> in based on your IP address.
>


You can ...

> When I go and visit my relatives in the USA, and I dial up
> work (in Canada), and perform activities from behind our NAT'ing
> firewall, then exactly what mechanism exists that can not only
> bypass our firewall to get information, but can also tell from
> the IP address alone whether I'm dialing up work from Alberta or Alabama
> or Albania ?


.... as IP wise it doesn't matter where you physically are. "Your" are
always from CA.

And in the general case the IP's location is identical to where the
person really is.

The real trick of all these geolocation software is to map the ISP's
assigned blocks to locations.





Arnold
--
Arnold Nipper, AN45

Walter Roberson 07-04-2005 10:03 PM

Re: Can Vonage et al be used FROM foreign countries?
 
In article <1120504572.529869@server.nipper.de>,
Arnold Nipper <arnold-200506@nipper.de> wrote:
:On 04.07.2005 20:50 Walter Roberson wrote

:> In the general case, it not possible to tell what country you are
:> in based on your IP address.

:You can ...

:... as IP wise it doesn't matter where you physically are. "Your" are
:always from CA.

Which country you are physically in *does* matter in some cases.
Cryptography export laws. Censorship laws. Laws that determine which
country has jurisdiction in a civil suit over credit card purchases.
Defamation laws. Copyright laws. Tax and duty laws. Database / site
access which must be free to residents of one country because of
government funding, but residents of other countries must pay a fee...


:And in the general case the IP's location is identical to where the
:person really is.

One's IP address at best narrows down the location of the interface
between the public network and the private network that one is using.

--
History is a pile of debris -- Laurie Anderson

Arnold Nipper 07-04-2005 10:14 PM

Re: Can Vonage et al be used FROM foreign countries?
 
On 05.07.2005 00:03 Walter Roberson wrote

> :And in the general case the IP's location is identical to where the
> :person really is.
>
> One's IP address at best narrows down the location of the interface
> between the public network and the private network that one is using.
>


Which is quite perfect for most of the companies interested in locating you.




Arnold
--
Arnold Nipper, AN45

Walter Roberson 07-04-2005 11:32 PM

Re: Can Vonage et al be used FROM foreign countries?
 
In article <1120515294.142145@server.nipper.de>,
Arnold Nipper <arnold-200506@nipper.de> wrote:
:On 05.07.2005 00:03 Walter Roberson wrote

:> One's IP address at best narrows down the location of the interface
:> between the public network and the private network that one is using.

:Which is quite perfect for most of the companies interested in locating you.


Scooby <mmscooby1@removeme.earthlink.net> wrote:
>>> It is not difficult to tell what country you are in based on your IP

>> address.


There is a large difference between saying that it is "not difficult"
to tell what country you are in, and saying that one can get close
enough for "most of the companies interested in locating you."


If I contend that it is difficult to factor a number which is the
product of two large primes, then an appropriate response from you
would not be "But most numbers are divisible by 2, 3, or 5, which is
good enough for most people interested in factoring numbers."
--
I was very young in those days, but I was also rather dim.
-- Christopher Priest

Arnold Nipper 07-05-2005 12:35 AM

Re: Can Vonage et al be used FROM foreign countries?
 
On 05.07.2005 01:32 Walter Roberson wrote

> In article <1120515294.142145@server.nipper.de>,
> Arnold Nipper <arnold-200506@nipper.de> wrote:
> :On 05.07.2005 00:03 Walter Roberson wrote
>
> :> One's IP address at best narrows down the location of the interface
> :> between the public network and the private network that one is using.
>
> :Which is quite perfect for most of the companies interested in locating you.
>
>
> Scooby <mmscooby1@removeme.earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>> It is not difficult to tell what country you are in based on your IP
>>> address.

>
> There is a large difference between saying that it is "not difficult"
> to tell what country you are in, and saying that one can get close
> enough for "most of the companies interested in locating you."
>
>


Nobody said it's the same. So what's your point?



Arnold
--
Arnold Nipper, AN45

Scooby 07-05-2005 07:56 PM

Re: Can Vonage et al be used FROM foreign countries?
 
"Walter Roberson" <roberson@ibd.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca> wrote in message
news:dacgtp$2oo$1@canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca...
> In article <1120515294.142145@server.nipper.de>,
> Arnold Nipper <arnold-200506@nipper.de> wrote:
> :On 05.07.2005 00:03 Walter Roberson wrote
>
> :> One's IP address at best narrows down the location of the interface
> :> between the public network and the private network that one is using.
>
> :Which is quite perfect for most of the companies interested in locating

you.
>
>
> Scooby <mmscooby1@removeme.earthlink.net> wrote:
> >>> It is not difficult to tell what country you are in based on your IP
> >> address.

>
> There is a large difference between saying that it is "not difficult"
> to tell what country you are in, and saying that one can get close
> enough for "most of the companies interested in locating you."
>
>
> If I contend that it is difficult to factor a number which is the
> product of two large primes, then an appropriate response from you
> would not be "But most numbers are divisible by 2, 3, or 5, which is
> good enough for most people interested in factoring numbers."
> --
> I was very young in those days, but I was also rather dim.
> -- Christopher Priest


Okay, let me rephrase my response.... It is not difficult to tell what
country an originating IP is in. It was just a general response to a
general question. If a telco were to try and restrict based on this
information, it is a fairly simple task.

You are correct in saying that it is possible to circumvent their logic
through vpn's and dialup. However, it is then you that would be breaking
the EULA or laws. I think the point here is that it only seems to be
illegal in some areas. Vonage does not make that distinction, but rather
puts the responsibility on the end user.

I will say this... It is very possible that if you are going through the
trouble of using vpn from a distant country, you may totally destroy any
sound quality. Consider that you have distance latency, plus vpn overhead
from there to the States, then back out to the remote location (possibly
back overseas). It could be a horrible connection - there are better
alternatives for people just looking for free/cheap voip.

Jim



Walter Roberson 07-05-2005 09:57 PM

Re: Can Vonage et al be used FROM foreign countries?
 
In article <4bb74$42cae5ed$a22770bd$7972@ALLTEL.NET>,
Scooby <mmscooby1@removeme.earthlink.net> wrote:
:Okay, let me rephrase my response.... It is not difficult to tell what
:country an originating IP is in.

And I still say that it is sometimes *impossible* to determine which
country an originating IP is in. Don't confuse registrar and
physical location of the person responsible for the traffic.


: It was just a general response to a
:general question. If a telco were to try and restrict based on this
:information, it is a fairly simple task.

A telco (or anyone else) would be able to restrict based on
"guestimates" of where the IP is, but not upon where the IP *really* is.


:You are correct in saying that it is possible to circumvent their logic
:through vpn's and dialup. However, it is then you that would be breaking
:the EULA or laws.

Read it in reverse: there are cases in which if I am in a
particular country, it is legally necessary to grant me access to
material, but that providers that rely on (necessarily) inaccurate
information about where my IP is may block me because they think
I'm elsewhere. The blocker is then breaking the rule or contract
or law by denying access based upon information that they *know*
cannot be completely accurate.
--
Any sufficiently old bug becomes a feature.


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