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-   -   Frameworks for "Non-Content Oriented Web Apps" (http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/t339868-frameworks-for-non-content-oriented-web-apps.html)

Tim Churches 01-02-2005 04:02 AM

Re: Frameworks for "Non-Content Oriented Web Apps"
 
mirnazim@gmail.com wrote:
> Hi,
>
> There are great Python Web Application Framework. But most of them are
> meant for content oriented web apps.
>
> Is there something that can ease the development of application that
> are not content oriented(I call them "NON CONTENT-ORIENTED WEB
> APPLICATIONS" because I don't know what else to call them). I mean the
> applications like, accounting, high volume data entry apps, where
> normally GUI clients have ruled. I know very high quality ERP and
> similar packages have been implemented in a web based environment. But
> problem is that they have been developed with the tools that were
> actually meant for content oriented apps like Zope, PHP, etc.


Can you give some URL for publicly accessible examples of what you mean
by a "NON CONTENT-ORIENTED WEB APPLICATIONS", so we can get a better
idea of what you mean?

Tim C

mirnazim@gmail.com 01-02-2005 04:51 AM

Frameworks for "Non-Content Oriented Web Apps"
 
Hi,

There are great Python Web Application Framework. But most of them are
meant for content oriented web apps.

Is there something that can ease the development of application that
are not content oriented(I call them "NON CONTENT-ORIENTED WEB
APPLICATIONS" because I don't know what else to call them). I mean the
applications like, accounting, high volume data entry apps, where
normally GUI clients have ruled. I know very high quality ERP and
similar packages have been implemented in a web based environment. But
problem is that they have been developed with the tools that were
actually meant for content oriented apps like Zope, PHP, etc.

But is there some sort of framework or something that is actually meant
for such web apps,application that make heavy use of forms, have very
high amount of user interaction etc.

What I am asking here may sound off beat, but I think, in todays world
where web based solutions offers such a flexibility, we really need it.

I also know that I am to ambiguous, but as is the characteristic of
this wonderful community, talks that start as most abigous, transform
in crystal clear.

PS: I am a web developer, using PHP for living. I have been playing
with python for a while. I found python is really a cool language(do I
need to say that ;-)) with a really, really impressive collection of
modules and frameworks. While developing a school information system, I
felt the need of such a framework that makes developing of "Non-Content
Oriented Web-Apps" easy.

I know I posted a similar message earlier, but this time I a bit more
general.


Paul Rubin 01-02-2005 05:08 AM

Re: Frameworks for "Non-Content Oriented Web Apps"
 
Tim Churches <tchur@optushome.com.au> writes:
> Can you give some URL for publicly accessible examples of what you
> mean by a "NON CONTENT-ORIENTED WEB APPLICATIONS", so we can get a
> better idea of what you mean?


I don't think there was anything unclear about it. A spreadsheet
might be a good example.

Nick Coghlan 01-02-2005 05:43 AM

Re: Frameworks for "Non-Content Oriented Web Apps"
 
mirnazim@gmail.com wrote:
> But is there some sort of framework or something that is actually meant
> for such web apps,application that make heavy use of forms, have very
> high amount of user interaction etc.


Hmm, PJE's PEAK might be worth having a look at: http://peak.telecommunity.com/

However, I'm not sure if that will provide enough of the 'web' side of things.

Cheers,
Nick.

--
Nick Coghlan | ncoghlan@email.com | Brisbane, Australia
---------------------------------------------------------------
http://boredomandlaziness.skystorm.net

Ian Bicking 01-02-2005 06:37 AM

Re: Frameworks for "Non-Content Oriented Web Apps"
 
mirnazim@gmail.com wrote:
> There are great Python Web Application Framework. But most of them are
> meant for content oriented web apps.
>
> Is there something that can ease the development of application that
> are not content oriented(I call them "NON CONTENT-ORIENTED WEB
> APPLICATIONS" because I don't know what else to call them).


Maybe you mean "interactive web applications", as opposed to
"document-centric" applications? But then, that's what most frameworks
are really designed for.

> I mean the
> applications like, accounting, high volume data entry apps, where
> normally GUI clients have ruled. I know very high quality ERP and
> similar packages have been implemented in a web based environment. But
> problem is that they have been developed with the tools that were
> actually meant for content oriented apps like Zope, PHP, etc.


Zope I'd say is content-oriented, though with a bit of imagination you
can phrase these applications in terms of "content". PHP and many other
Python frameworks are process-oriented, meaning that each request just
plain executes some code. Which is true of Zope too, but the basic
metaphors in Zope are that a request displays the view of some object,
which is a little more abstract way of looking at it.

> But is there some sort of framework or something that is actually meant
> for such web apps,application that make heavy use of forms, have very
> high amount of user interaction etc.


Do you mean non-traditional web applications, ala gmail? Probably not,
I think you are talking about certain framework concerns that most
frameworks aspire to in some fashion, but actually achieve to differing
degrees. PEAK addresses some of these, but in a UI-neutral way, and
it's quite experimental (at least in the perspective of a whole
application; as robust as the individual pieces may be, there's no real
model for how to use it for a full application).

There's other form processing libraries, but they all are experimental
in a way. I developed FormEncode, which relates to some of this. Zope
3 has Schemas, which can be used for form generation and validation, and
Plone has Archetypes. I don't think there's anything that's a Whole
Package, but Zope 3 and Plone/Archetypes might be the closest (depending
on what your vision is).

> What I am asking here may sound off beat, but I think, in todays world
> where web based solutions offers such a flexibility, we really need it.
>
> I also know that I am to ambiguous, but as is the characteristic of
> this wonderful community, talks that start as most abigous, transform
> in crystal clear.
>
> PS: I am a web developer, using PHP for living. I have been playing
> with python for a while. I found python is really a cool language(do I
> need to say that ;-)) with a really, really impressive collection of
> modules and frameworks. While developing a school information system, I
> felt the need of such a framework that makes developing of "Non-Content
> Oriented Web-Apps" easy.


Eh, it just needs some clear direction for *any* kind of web apps, IMHO.

But with what you are specifically asking for, I think it's just a Hard
Problem that Is Not Yet Solved, though there is work being done and
people are attacking it from different directions.

--
Ian Bicking / ianb@colorstudy.com / http://blog.ianbicking.org

Stephen Thorne 01-02-2005 07:08 AM

Re: Frameworks for "Non-Content Oriented Web Apps"
 
On 1 Jan 2005 20:51:06 -0800, mirnazim@gmail.com <mirnazim@gmail.com> wrote:
> But is there some sort of framework or something that is actually meant
> for such web apps,application that make heavy use of forms, have very
> high amount of user interaction etc.
> <etc>


Yeah, nevow, by those crazy twisted people, is great. The underlying
concept is 'object publishing', and has some very funky technology for
live-updating of a client-side web page via javascript (ala gmail).

Object publishing is along the lines of, instead of having a 'form',
you have an object which represents data. It knows how to handle form
submissions, validate data, etc. And you 'publish' that object. The
user can then interact with that object.

Anyway, I haven't mucked around with nevow for months, you're better
off checking out nevow.com and divmod.org yourself.

Stephen.

Sridhar 01-02-2005 08:19 AM

Re: Frameworks for "Non-Content Oriented Web Apps"
 
You need Twisted - http://twistedmatrix.com
---
: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Sridharinfinity


Alan Gauld 01-02-2005 08:47 AM

Re: Frameworks for "Non-Content Oriented Web Apps"
 
On 1 Jan 2005 20:51:06 -0800, mirnazim@gmail.com wrote:
> Is there something that can ease the development of application that
> are not content oriented(I call them "NON CONTENT-ORIENTED WEB
> APPLICATIONS" because I don't know what else to call them). I mean the
> applications like, accounting, high volume data entry apps, where
> normally GUI clients have ruled. I know very high quality ERP




I don;t know of any such frameworks.

The Siebel CRM system may be the kind of thing you mean I think,
but it uses standard technology. IT just puts up a form then uses
client side Javascript to detect changes and send the data
requests to/from the data server... No special frameworks as
such...

HTH,

Alan G.
Author of the Learn to Program website
http://www.freenetpages.co.uk/hp/alan.gauld

mirnazim@gmail.com 01-02-2005 01:30 PM

Re: Frameworks for "Non-Content Oriented Web Apps"
 
I have started a topic that is really vauge. I knew that this topic is
very general and abstract but I think it turned out to be more general
that I had expected.

Let me make an attemp at defining "Non-Content Oriented Web
Applications".

A "Non-Content Oriented Web Application":
(1) will be accessed from web browser(obviously).

(2) will be developed using 'W3C' and other open standards(STRICTLY, to
ensure compatibility and portablity).

(3) will expose some kind of functionality to the user, not just some
document to read.

(4) functionality can be very simple to very complex.

I sat down to define what I actually mean by "Non-Content Oriented Web
Applications" with a fairly clear idea, But suddenly every thing
vanished from my mind, "OH MY GOD, I AM OUT OF WORDS". I think all of
you have been i such situation at least once. So please help me in
defining these "Non-Content Oriented Web Applications". To give a
example, I think GMAIL comes quite close to what I am talking aout.


paolo_veronelli 01-02-2005 05:36 PM

Re: Frameworks for "Non-Content Oriented Web Apps"
 
mirnazim@gmail.com wrote:

>I have started a topic that is really vauge. I knew that this topic is
>very general and abstract but I think it turned out to be more general
>that I had expected.
>
>Let me make an attemp at defining "Non-Content Oriented Web
>Applications".
>
>A "Non-Content Oriented Web Application":
>(1) will be accessed from web browser(obviously).
>
>(2) will be developed using 'W3C' and other open standards(STRICTLY, to
>ensure compatibility and portablity).
>
>(3) will expose some kind of functionality to the user, not just some
>document to read.
>
>(4) functionality can be very simple to very complex.
>
>I sat down to define what I actually mean by "Non-Content Oriented Web
>Applications" with a fairly clear idea, But suddenly every thing
>vanished from my mind, "OH MY GOD, I AM OUT OF WORDS". I think all of
>you have been i such situation at least once. So please help me in
>defining these "Non-Content Oriented Web Applications". To give a
>example, I think GMAIL comes quite close to what I am talking aout.
>
>
>

Well,this is what we are working on,about point 2) 1) ~3) ~4) ,but I
really don't think it has something strongly related with gmail.

We are using nevow and rdf,mainly.Nevow for rendering pages,and rdf to
build them on the fly.

Probably,what I find related to your questions in this project is the
open server ontology we are trying to build.

Eventually ontologies and semantics have nothing to do with python core(
:-(( ),but with a good scripting language it's easy to mix semantic net
querying with pages ,rendering technical, nevow code.

This way functionalities of the service are changed,and built during the
service run,just adding triples to the semantic net and changing the
contents sticked to its nodes.

We hope to have code in the contents of the semantic net soon.This will
allow to upload a piece of code ,some templates,together with the right
metadatas in the semantic net
and see the service implied running around in the pages which URI is
matched by the pattern coded in the metadata of the service.

It's not clear to me also,but this is how it works:using semantic
matching(which can be very complex) to decide the interface to
information pieces an URL renders.

Last but not least,all the informations ,their logic and the rendering
engine end functionalities(templates and their specific code),are
distribuited as definition as the reside in the semantic net service.My
poor english(and stoned mind).

I hope I got something of your lost words,have fun and have a look at
www.pytypus.org.

Yours



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