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-   -   Is there some Python + IDE/RAD for real speed development??? (http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/t320640-is-there-some-python-ide-rad-for-real-speed-development.html)

Edilmar 08-06-2003 02:11 PM

Is there some Python + IDE/RAD for real speed development???
 
Hi,

First of all, I'm new in Python...

I have worked with manu langs and IDEs, like Delphi, VB, JBuilder, Eclipse,
Borland C++, Perl, etc...

Then, today I think IDEs like Delphi have a excelent environment to develop
apps with little time. I saw many people talking about Python like a easy
lang to learn and to develop. But I have look at IDEs for Python, or ways
to develop GUIs with it, and I think it already is limited when comparing
with IDEs like Delphi. Is this afirmation true?

I look at wxPython and PyGTK, but the samples showed that we have to write
MANY LINES of code to do simple things. Many people have wrote about the
advantage of Python to write little code, but, when talking about GUIs,
I think it's not really true, right?

Using Delphi, little or none code is need for many things, but wxPython
and PyGTK is the reverse!

Thanks for any replies,

Markus Jais 08-06-2003 02:18 PM

Re: Is there some Python + IDE/RAD for real speed development???
 
hi
maybe this is of interest to you.

http://boa-constructor.sourceforge.net/

markus



Edilmar wrote:

> Hi,
>
> First of all, I'm new in Python...
>
> I have worked with manu langs and IDEs, like Delphi, VB, JBuilder,
> Eclipse, Borland C++, Perl, etc...
>
> Then, today I think IDEs like Delphi have a excelent environment to
> develop apps with little time. I saw many people talking about Python like
> a easy lang to learn and to develop. But I have look at IDEs for Python,
> or ways to develop GUIs with it, and I think it already is limited when
> comparing with IDEs like Delphi. Is this afirmation true?
>
> I look at wxPython and PyGTK, but the samples showed that we have to write
> MANY LINES of code to do simple things. Many people have wrote about the
> advantage of Python to write little code, but, when talking about GUIs,
> I think it's not really true, right?
>
> Using Delphi, little or none code is need for many things, but wxPython
> and PyGTK is the reverse!
>
> Thanks for any replies,



Alex Martelli 08-06-2003 02:52 PM

Re: Is there some Python + IDE/RAD for real speed development???
 
<posted & mailed>

Edilmar wrote:

> Hi,
>
> First of all, I'm new in Python...
>
> I have worked with manu langs and IDEs, like Delphi, VB, JBuilder,
> Eclipse, Borland C++, Perl, etc...
>
> Then, today I think IDEs like Delphi have a excelent environment to
> develop apps with little time. I saw many people talking about Python like
> a easy lang to learn and to develop. But I have look at IDEs for Python,
> or ways to develop GUIs with it, and I think it already is limited when
> comparing with IDEs like Delphi. Is this afirmation true?


I don't think you have considered all the available GUIs for Python,
and, in particular, the commercial ones (like Delphi and its Linux
version Kylix are commercial). For example, BlackAdder (which uses
the same commercial Qt libraries which I believe Kylix uses) seems
to have the "GUI painter" kind of tool that you require. If it's GUI
painters you're after, I think you can find some, either commercial
or free (not all in definitive versions, many will still be betas),
for most toolkits you might want to use (PythonWorks makes a commercial
one for Tkinter, I think one can use glade + gic [gic.sourceforge.net]
for Gtk, I see somebody's already mentioned Boa for wx, etc, etc).


> I look at wxPython and PyGTK, but the samples showed that we have to write
> MANY LINES of code to do simple things. Many people have wrote about the
> advantage of Python to write little code, but, when talking about GUIs,
> I think it's not really true, right?


If you want a code generator (particularly a tool that generates code
based on a GUI you paint on-screen) that's not hard to find (particularly
if, as in Delphi's case, you're willing to pay for one). The amount of
code to be thus generated for typical GUI's (minus, that is, any logic
behind them) won't be all that different between e.g. Python and Delphi's
Object Pascal. If the code that's automatically generated does all that
your application needs, then it makes no difference to you what language
that generated code is in, of course.

Python's advantages shine when you have to write code as opposed to being
100% satisfied with code automatically generated, and in that respect
there is no real difference between GUI's (as soon as you need to
customize the generated code or put custom logic behind it -- via
inheritance, of course, it would be counterproductive to go and edit
files produced automatically by a code generator) and other application
areas.


> Using Delphi, little or none code is need for many things, but wxPython
> and PyGTK is the reverse!


I assume you do not mean what you say, but rather that the GUI painter /
IDE you use generates just about all code you need ("for many things") in
Delphi's case, while you're apparently not using any code generator for
either wxPython or pyGTK and therefore need to write all code yourself.
So, if you want a code generator / GUI painter, get one...


Alex


David M. Cook 08-06-2003 03:17 PM

Re: Is there some Python + IDE/RAD for real speed development???
 
In article <96fda9ac.0308060611.56dfca7e@posting.google.com >, Edilmar wrote:

> I look at wxPython and PyGTK, but the samples showed that we have to write
> MANY LINES of code to do simple things. Many people have wrote about the
> advantage of Python to write little code, but, when talking about GUIs,
> I think it's not really true, right?


The samples are probably showing how to do things "by hand", and aren't
taking advantage of the available tools. That's appropriate for an honest
sample.

Have you tried glade and libglade? Glade does have limitations and
annoyances, but I find this a pretty powerful combination.

I don't know much about wxpython, but you should probably check out
boa-constructor.

BTW, PyGTK is essentially just a toolkit, not an application framework, so
it is missing some things that people expect from an app framework.
gnome-python does have more, but at the cost of considerably more
dependencies.

There's also PyQT and qtdesigner.

Dave Cook

John Hunter 08-06-2003 04:35 PM

Re: Is there some Python + IDE/RAD for real speed development???
 
>>>>> "Edilmar" == Edilmar <edilmar@intersite.com.br> writes:

Edilmar> afirmation true?

Edilmar> I look at wxPython and PyGTK, but the samples showed that
Edilmar> we have to write MANY LINES of code to do simple
Edilmar> things. Many people have wrote about the advantage of
Edilmar> Python to write little code, but, when talking about
Edilmar> GUIs, I think it's not really true, right?

pygtk works with glade, a very nice RAD tool

http://glade.gnome.org/

John Hunter


Kevin Altis 08-06-2003 06:15 PM

Re: Is there some Python + IDE/RAD for real speed development???
 
The following wiki page is relevant.

http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/moinmoin/GuiProgramming

You've already received some comments on Qt and GTK toolkits, so I won't go
into those. For wxPython, you should look at Boa, wxGlade, and wxDesigner.
Boa is modeled after Delphi, so that might seem the most familiar to you.

http://boa-constructor.sourceforge.net/

http://wxglade.sourceforge.net/

http://www.roebling.de/

You can use them just for doing layouts or you can have them generate source
code too.

<shameless plug>
In terms of lines of code in your finished script, PythonCard probably wins
because it is a wrapper around wxPython designed to hide many of the
complexities inherent in setting up frames, controls, and binding events
that you normally have to do. The code for doing all the setup is in the
framework, not in the code you write. PythonCard uses separate source
modules and layout files and auto-binds events, so your source will just be
event handlers and program logic. This is similar to what you would be used
to seeing if you used Visual Basic.

http://www.pythoncard.org/

There is even a tool in progress to convert VB to PythonCard (and later
other GUI toolkits) called vb2py

http://vb2py.sourceforge.net/

There are a lot of samples and tools for you to look at so you can see if
PythonCard is good enough for what you want.

http://pythoncard.sourceforge.net/samples/samples.html

Between it and one of the wxPython tools above you should get close to what
you're looking for. PythonCard is still in flux (which is why it is labeled
as alpha) and it doesn't give you all of the capabilities of the other
wxPython tools so you might be more comfortable with Boa...
</shameless plug>

Finally, GUI frameworks and environments are a very active area for Python
development and the tools are maturing relatively quickly. You can help
influence the design and feature set of some of them, but if you don't find
exactly what you're looking for today, check back again in six months or so.

ka


"Edilmar" <edilmar@intersite.com.br> wrote in message
news:96fda9ac.0308060611.56dfca7e@posting.google.c om...
> Hi,
>
> First of all, I'm new in Python...
>
> I have worked with manu langs and IDEs, like Delphi, VB, JBuilder,

Eclipse,
> Borland C++, Perl, etc...
>
> Then, today I think IDEs like Delphi have a excelent environment to

develop
> apps with little time. I saw many people talking about Python like a easy
> lang to learn and to develop. But I have look at IDEs for Python, or ways
> to develop GUIs with it, and I think it already is limited when comparing
> with IDEs like Delphi. Is this afirmation true?
>
> I look at wxPython and PyGTK, but the samples showed that we have to write
> MANY LINES of code to do simple things. Many people have wrote about the
> advantage of Python to write little code, but, when talking about GUIs,
> I think it's not really true, right?
>
> Using Delphi, little or none code is need for many things, but wxPython
> and PyGTK is the reverse!
>
> Thanks for any replies,



Dave Reed 08-06-2003 06:39 PM

Re: Is there some Python + IDE/RAD for real speed development???
 
On Wednesday 06 August 2003 12:35, John Hunter wrote:
> >>>>> "Edilmar" == Edilmar <edilmar@intersite.com.br> writes:

>
> Edilmar> afirmation true?
>
> Edilmar> I look at wxPython and PyGTK, but the samples showed that
> Edilmar> we have to write MANY LINES of code to do simple
> Edilmar> things. Many people have wrote about the advantage of
> Edilmar> Python to write little code, but, when talking about
> Edilmar> GUIs, I think it's not really true, right?
>
> pygtk works with glade, a very nice RAD tool
>
> http://glade.gnome.org/
>
> John Hunter



I'll second the recommendation for glade/pygtk. It's very easy to use
and along with libglade for reading the xml file glade creates, it
takes very little code to create the GUI.

I've also written a short Python program that parses the glade-2 xml
file and creates a "skeleton" class with methods set up for all the
signal handlers the glade xml file specifies. When I get around to
finishing it, I'll release it under the GPL.

Dave




Jean Brouwers 08-06-2003 06:55 PM

Re: Is there some Python + IDE/RAD for real speed development???
 
Edilmar,

There are quite a few IDE/RAD tools available for Python, both
commercial and open source. See for example this list

<http://py.vaults.ca/parnassus/apyllo.py/751771926.979528604>

However, before deciding on an IDE/RAD tool for GUI development,
you must consider which underlying toolkit to use, Tkinter,
wxPython, PyQt, etc. That could limit your choice.

HTH, /Jean



Alex Martelli <aleax@aleax.it> wrote in message news:<vC8Ya.25038$an6.895048@news1.tin.it>...
> <posted & mailed>
>
> Edilmar wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > First of all, I'm new in Python...
> >
> > I have worked with manu langs and IDEs, like Delphi, VB, JBuilder,
> > Eclipse, Borland C++, Perl, etc...
> >
> > Then, today I think IDEs like Delphi have a excelent environment to
> > develop apps with little time. I saw many people talking about Python like
> > a easy lang to learn and to develop. But I have look at IDEs for Python,
> > or ways to develop GUIs with it, and I think it already is limited when
> > comparing with IDEs like Delphi. Is this afirmation true?

>
> I don't think you have considered all the available GUIs for Python,
> and, in particular, the commercial ones (like Delphi and its Linux
> version Kylix are commercial). For example, BlackAdder (which uses
> the same commercial Qt libraries which I believe Kylix uses) seems
> to have the "GUI painter" kind of tool that you require. If it's GUI
> painters you're after, I think you can find some, either commercial
> or free (not all in definitive versions, many will still be betas),
> for most toolkits you might want to use (PythonWorks makes a commercial
> one for Tkinter, I think one can use glade + gic [gic.sourceforge.net]
> for Gtk, I see somebody's already mentioned Boa for wx, etc, etc).
>
>
> > I look at wxPython and PyGTK, but the samples showed that we have to write
> > MANY LINES of code to do simple things. Many people have wrote about the
> > advantage of Python to write little code, but, when talking about GUIs,
> > I think it's not really true, right?

>
> If you want a code generator (particularly a tool that generates code
> based on a GUI you paint on-screen) that's not hard to find (particularly
> if, as in Delphi's case, you're willing to pay for one). The amount of
> code to be thus generated for typical GUI's (minus, that is, any logic
> behind them) won't be all that different between e.g. Python and Delphi's
> Object Pascal. If the code that's automatically generated does all that
> your application needs, then it makes no difference to you what language
> that generated code is in, of course.
>
> Python's advantages shine when you have to write code as opposed to being
> 100% satisfied with code automatically generated, and in that respect
> there is no real difference between GUI's (as soon as you need to
> customize the generated code or put custom logic behind it -- via
> inheritance, of course, it would be counterproductive to go and edit
> files produced automatically by a code generator) and other application
> areas.
>
>
> > Using Delphi, little or none code is need for many things, but wxPython
> > and PyGTK is the reverse!

>
> I assume you do not mean what you say, but rather that the GUI painter /
> IDE you use generates just about all code you need ("for many things") in
> Delphi's case, while you're apparently not using any code generator for
> either wxPython or pyGTK and therefore need to write all code yourself.
> So, if you want a code generator / GUI painter, get one...
>
>
> Alex


Michael Peuser 08-07-2003 09:32 AM

Re: Is there some Python + IDE/RAD for real speed development???
 
Having looked for some time for Python GUI Toolkits (in contrast to GUI
Builders/IDE which was the OP's concern) I found the following quite useful
(mostly) C/C++ GUI Toolkits which have a Pythin binding:

Tkinter
Win32API/MFC
Qt
GTK
wxWindows
FOX
FLTK


Except for Win32API all seem to be portable, most even to Mac-OS X.
The quality of the actual Python binding, ease of installation and (Python-)
documation varies greatly.
Be always aware the differences between fine an stable basis Toolkits and
sometimes limited Python bindings!
Functionality can as well be a matter. Of cause all provide Labels, Menus,
Buttons, some Textedit, and some kind of Canvas.

But what about HTML- (or RTF-) Rendering, Printing, "Standard Dialogues",
OpenGL, Graphic Primitives,......
You should have a close look for that as well.
All of them have some different way of addressing event loops.....

I rate Qt very high, but it is VERY commercial as well...
Note that wx is a - but what powerful! - layer upon native Base-GUIs:
Win32API/MFC on Windows and GTK on Unix. So you can have a lot of layers
.....
Tkinter is not as bad as you should think, especially with Pmw, TIX and
(habe a look at that!) Fredrik Lundh's WCK (aka Tk 3000), which is in some
pre-alpha state however.....

If printing is a matter, also have a look at ReportLab.

Google for all the links...

Kindly
Michael

"Jean Brouwers" <JBrouwers@ProphICy.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:25a9ea3e.0308061055.1cc2b2dd@posting.google.c om...
> Edilmar,
>
> There are quite a few IDE/RAD tools available for Python, both
> commercial and open source. See for example this list
>
> <http://py.vaults.ca/parnassus/apyllo.py/751771926.979528604>
>
> However, before deciding on an IDE/RAD tool for GUI development,
> you must consider which underlying toolkit to use, Tkinter,
> wxPython, PyQt, etc. That could limit your choice.
>
> HTH, /Jean
>
>
>
> Alex Martelli <aleax@aleax.it> wrote in message

news:<vC8Ya.25038$an6.895048@news1.tin.it>...
> > <posted & mailed>
> >
> > Edilmar wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > First of all, I'm new in Python...
> > >
>> > I have worked with manu langs and IDEs, like Delphi, VB, JBuilder,
> > > Eclipse, Borland C++, Perl, etc...
> > >
> > > Then, today I think IDEs like Delphi have a excelent environment to
> > > develop apps with little time. I saw many people talking about Python

like
> > > a easy lang to learn and to develop. But I have look at IDEs for

Python,
> > > or ways to develop GUIs with it, and I think it already is limited

when
> > > comparing with IDEs like Delphi. Is this afirmation true?

> >
> > I don't think you have considered all the available GUIs for Python,
> > and, in particular, the commercial ones (like Delphi and its Linux
> > version Kylix are commercial). For example, BlackAdder (which uses
> > the same commercial Qt libraries which I believe Kylix uses) seems
> > to have the "GUI painter" kind of tool that you require. If it's GUI
> > painters you're after, I think you can find some, either commercial
> > or free (not all in definitive versions, many will still be betas),
> > for most toolkits you might want to use (PythonWorks makes a commercial
> > one for Tkinter, I think one can use glade + gic [gic.sourceforge.net]
> > for Gtk, I see somebody's already mentioned Boa for wx, etc, etc).
> >
> >
> > > I look at wxPython and PyGTK, but the samples showed that we have to

write
> > > MANY LINES of code to do simple things. Many people have wrote about

the
> > > advantage of Python to write little code, but, when talking about

GUIs,
> > > I think it's not really true, right?

> >
> > If you want a code generator (particularly a tool that generates code
> > based on a GUI you paint on-screen) that's not hard to find

(particularly
> > if, as in Delphi's case, you're willing to pay for one). The amount of
> > code to be thus generated for typical GUI's (minus, that is, any logic
> > behind them) won't be all that different between e.g. Python and

Delphi's
> > Object Pascal. If the code that's automatically generated does all that
> > your application needs, then it makes no difference to you what language
> > that generated code is in, of course.
> >
> > Python's advantages shine when you have to write code as opposed to

being
> > 100% satisfied with code automatically generated, and in that respect
> > there is no real difference between GUI's (as soon as you need to
> > customize the generated code or put custom logic behind it -- via
> > inheritance, of course, it would be counterproductive to go and edit
> > files produced automatically by a code generator) and other application
> > areas.
> >
> >
> > > Using Delphi, little or none code is need for many things, but

wxPython
> > > and PyGTK is the reverse!

> >
> > I assume you do not mean what you say, but rather that the GUI painter /
> > IDE you use generates just about all code you need ("for many things")

in
> > Delphi's case, while you're apparently not using any code generator for
> > either wxPython or pyGTK and therefore need to write all code yourself.
> > So, if you want a code generator / GUI painter, get one...
> >
> >
> > Alex




Fredrik Lundh 08-07-2003 06:01 PM

Re: Is there some Python + IDE/RAD for real speed development???
 
Michael Peuser wrote:

> Fredrik Lundh's WCK (aka Tk 3000), which is in some pre-alpha
> state however.....


beta 4, actually:

http://effbot.org/zone/wck.htm (docs+articles)
http://effbot.org/downloads#tkinter3000 (code)

</F>






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