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-   -   A story about Python... sort of (http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/t319187-a-story-about-python-sort-of.html)

Max M 07-03-2003 09:17 AM

A story about Python... sort of
 
There is a story today on Slashdot


Open Source Project Management Lessons
======================================
http://developers.slashdot.org/artic...e=flat&tid=185

"Paul Baranowski takes a moment to reflect on Open Source Project
Management in his blog. His reflections are based on the first two years
of the Peek-a-booty project." Interesting comments on media coverage,
choice of programming language, when to release a project, and more.


In that article Paul Baranowski has a list of lessons. One being

Engineering Lessons
-------------------
1. C/C++ is no longer a viable development language


He doesn't really say in the article what language should be used
instead. But there is a link to another page:

Which Language Do You Recommend?
================================
http://peek-a-booty.org/Docs/WhichLa...uRecommend.htm


And guess which language it is?


regards Max M


Egor Bolonev 07-03-2003 10:38 AM

Re: A story about Python... sort of
 
Hello, Max!
You wrote on Thu, 03 Jul 2003 11:17:30 +0200:

MM> There is a story today on Slashdot

[Sorry, skipped]

MM> And guess which language it is?

InterEnglish?

With best regards, Egor Bolonev. E-mail: ebolonev@rol.ru [ru eo en]


Max Khesin 07-03-2003 01:50 PM

Re: A story about Python... sort of
 
import flame.*
import sorry.*
Ok, with all my respect to python, the stuff about C++ is a bunch of hooey.
Compilation time is the problem? Give me a break.
1) separate compilation?
2) precompiled headers?
3) tools that allow cluster compilation?
4) ever read 'large-scale c++ development' by Lacos? a must for large c++
project. letter-envelope idiom to help compilation...etc.
Anyway, if you are coding so fast that compilation time becomes a serious
problem you are either
a) the smartest and fastest programmer on earth
b) are not thinking enough

c++ is great when execution speed and memory efficiency is a must. It is
hard to learn, but there are great benefits, and do you really want halfwits
(who can't learn it) involved on your project? It also (by design) makes
previous C programmers productive very fast. Empirically - just look at all
the C++ projects on SF!

max.


--
========================================
Max Khesin, software developer -
max@cNvOiSsPiAoMntech.com
[check out our image compression software at www.cvisiontech.com, JBIG2-PDF
compression @
www.cvisiontech.com/cvistapdf.html]


"Max M" <maxm@mxm.dk> wrote in message
news:3f03f430$0$97222$edfadb0f@dread12.news.tele.d k...
> There is a story today on Slashdot
>
>
> Open Source Project Management Lessons
> ======================================
>

http://developers.slashdot.org/artic...&mode=flat&tid
=185
>
> "Paul Baranowski takes a moment to reflect on Open Source Project
> Management in his blog. His reflections are based on the first two years
> of the Peek-a-booty project." Interesting comments on media coverage,
> choice of programming language, when to release a project, and more.
>
>
> In that article Paul Baranowski has a list of lessons. One being
>
> Engineering Lessons
> -------------------
> 1. C/C++ is no longer a viable development language
>
>
> He doesn't really say in the article what language should be used
> instead. But there is a link to another page:
>
> Which Language Do You Recommend?
> ================================
> http://peek-a-booty.org/Docs/WhichLa...uRecommend.htm
>
>
> And guess which language it is?
>
>
> regards Max M
>




Max Khesin 07-03-2003 04:30 PM

Re: A story about Python... sort of
 
I am not a TDD expert, but from what I understand TDD applies to lower-level
code, not to design. Design usually spans separate modules and could have
serious impact on the compilation time, while lower-level code can be
compiled/tested very quickly, albeit not as quickly as python. And yes, many
solutions do indicate that there WAS a problem, but since the solutions
actually do work, the problem is not sufficient (IMO) to be a deal breaker
in terms of programming language choice.
max.

--
========================================
Max Khesin, software developer -
max@cNvOiSsPiAoMntech.com
[check out our image compression software at www.cvisiontech.com, JBIG2-PDF
compression @
www.cvisiontech.com/cvistapdf.html]



Max Khesin 07-03-2003 05:25 PM

Re: A story about Python... sort of
 
"BearMan" <ronald@PassTheDairy.net> wrote in message
news:FiZMa.2097$_k2.145814@nnrp1.ptd.net...
> Not to mention all the time spent recompiling through out the debugging

and
> troubleshooting process. Has Max ever programmed in Python? How about
> Assembly?


Yes to both in varying degree.

> The fact of the matter is there is no such thing as one ULTIMATE language.

A
> real programmer will have mastered several languages so as to integrate

the
> best features for any given situation.
>
> IMHO


I am not sure where we disagree. This is exactly my point. The statement
"
Engineering Lessons
-------------------
1. C/C++ is no longer a viable development language
"
is pure rubbish. C++ is still great for certain kinds of projects, and there
are lots of open-source and proprietary projects to prove this. I mean, is
Linux (or Windows) 'not a viable project'?? As I said, this is a very
narrow-minded and conceited statement: rubbish.

max.



BearMan 07-03-2003 05:34 PM

Re: A story about Python... sort of
 
Agreed...



Dave Brueck 07-03-2003 05:44 PM

Re: A story about Python... sort of
 
On Thursday 03 July 2003 07:18 am, Peter Hansen wrote:
> Max Khesin wrote:
> > import flame.*
> > import sorry.*
> > Ok, with all my respect to python, the stuff about C++ is a bunch of
> > hooey. Compilation time is the problem? Give me a break.
> > 1) separate compilation?
> > 2) precompiled headers?
> > 3) tools that allow cluster compilation?
> > 4) ever read 'large-scale c++ development' by Lacos? a must for large c++
> > project. letter-envelope idiom to help compilation...etc.

>
> Sounds to me that if they've come up with so many and such a wide
> range of optimizations to improve compilation time, then it clearly *is*
> a problem...


Yep! I just read an article in the July issue of Game Developer that mentioned
this topic (item #3 above) in passing. It was a post-mortem of the project
and they cited as one of their life-savers a tool that used all computers in
the office to assist in the compilation of the game - a compilation farm
basically - so that the full rebuild of the game could be reduced to only 3
minutes. Obviously you don't need to do a "rebuild all" for every change to
the code, but compilation and link time is a very real cost, especially as
the project size grows. Even for small projects though, I'm much more likely
to try out small, incremental changes in a language like Python than when I
did C++ or Java because it's just so quick and easy to try it out.

-Dave


F. GEIGER 07-03-2003 06:16 PM

Re: A story about Python... sort of
 
> (who can't learn it) involved on your project? It also (by design) makes
> previous C programmers productive very fast. Empirically - just look at

all

[OT] That's not a pro, that's a con on the C++ side. And actually that's the
reason why there's so much bad C++ software. A C programmer first has to
forget C to be able to program in C++ - well, to be able to program OO in
C++.

Best regards
Franz GEIGER

"Max Khesin" <max@cNOvSisiPonAtecMh.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:KwWMa.3332$Aw.3042@twister.nyc.rr.com...
> import flame.*
> import sorry.*
> Ok, with all my respect to python, the stuff about C++ is a bunch of

hooey.
> Compilation time is the problem? Give me a break.
> 1) separate compilation?
> 2) precompiled headers?
> 3) tools that allow cluster compilation?
> 4) ever read 'large-scale c++ development' by Lacos? a must for large c++
> project. letter-envelope idiom to help compilation...etc.
> Anyway, if you are coding so fast that compilation time becomes a serious
> problem you are either
> a) the smartest and fastest programmer on earth
> b) are not thinking enough
>
> c++ is great when execution speed and memory efficiency is a must. It is
> hard to learn, but there are great benefits, and do you really want

halfwits
> (who can't learn it) involved on your project? It also (by design) makes
> previous C programmers productive very fast. Empirically - just look at

all
> the C++ projects on SF!
>
> max.
>
>
> --
> ========================================
> Max Khesin, software developer -
> max@cNvOiSsPiAoMntech.com
> [check out our image compression software at www.cvisiontech.com,

JBIG2-PDF
> compression @
> www.cvisiontech.com/cvistapdf.html]
>
>
> "Max M" <maxm@mxm.dk> wrote in message
> news:3f03f430$0$97222$edfadb0f@dread12.news.tele.d k...
> > There is a story today on Slashdot
> >
> >
> > Open Source Project Management Lessons
> > ======================================
> >

>

http://developers.slashdot.org/artic...&mode=flat&tid
> =185
> >
> > "Paul Baranowski takes a moment to reflect on Open Source Project
> > Management in his blog. His reflections are based on the first two years
> > of the Peek-a-booty project." Interesting comments on media coverage,
> > choice of programming language, when to release a project, and more.
> >
> >
> > In that article Paul Baranowski has a list of lessons. One being
> >
> > Engineering Lessons
> > -------------------
> > 1. C/C++ is no longer a viable development language
> >
> >
> > He doesn't really say in the article what language should be used
> > instead. But there is a link to another page:
> >
> > Which Language Do You Recommend?
> > ================================
> > http://peek-a-booty.org/Docs/WhichLa...uRecommend.htm
> >
> >
> > And guess which language it is?
> >
> >
> > regards Max M
> >

>
>




Max Khesin 07-03-2003 07:11 PM

[ot continued..] Re: A story about Python... sort of
 

> [OT] That's not a pro, that's a con on the C++ side. And actually that's

the
> reason why there's so much bad C++ software. A C programmer first has to
> forget C to be able to program in C++ - well, to be able to program OO in
> C++.


Well, it is documented as one of the original design goals of the language,
if I remember correctly. It is certainly implicitly a goal considering the
sacrifices made to preserve C as a subset.
I think it was important in getting a lot of people on board with c++, but
it certainly there are many problems with it, including the one you
mentioned. Of course the problems would not exist if C++ was never accepted.
It is similar to saying 'how dare my parents embarass me by having sex'.
Take it up with Bjarne :)

max.

> Best regards
> Franz GEIGER








--
========================================
Max Khesin, software developer -
max@cNvOiSsPiAoMntech.com
[check out our image compression software at www.cvisiontech.com, JBIG2-PDF
compression @
www.cvisiontech.com/cvistapdf.html]



Cliff Wells 07-03-2003 10:23 PM

Re: A story about Python... sort of
 
On Thu, 2003-07-03 at 06:50, Max Khesin wrote:
> import flame.*
> import sorry.*
> Ok, with all my respect to python, the stuff about C++ is a bunch of hooey.
> Compilation time is the problem? Give me a break.


It is *a* problem. I'll agree that it's one of the least.

> 1) separate compilation?
> 2) precompiled headers?
> 3) tools that allow cluster compilation?
> 4) ever read 'large-scale c++ development' by Lacos? a must for large c++
> project. letter-envelope idiom to help compilation...etc.
> Anyway, if you are coding so fast that compilation time becomes a serious
> problem you are either
> a) the smartest and fastest programmer on earth
> b) are not thinking enough


Or making simple typos.

> c++ is great when execution speed and memory efficiency is a must. It is
> hard to learn, but there are great benefits, and do you really want halfwits
> (who can't learn it) involved on your project? It also (by design) makes
> previous C programmers productive very fast.


I won't disagree that there is a place for languages like C++.
Developing entire applications isn't it.

> Empirically - just look at all the C++ projects on SF!


And what percentage of those are incomplete, abandoned, or simply
unusable?

--
Cliff Wells, Software Engineer
Logiplex Corporation (www.logiplex.net)
(503) 978-6726 (800) 735-0555




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