DTS ES on 5.1 speaker question
 

In regards to the Fellowship of the Ring 4-disc DVD set...

I have a Logitech 5.1 speaker set plugged into my computer, and
PowerDVD (which can decode DTS) on the computer. It seems to work
fine for standard DTS movies...

However, Fellowship of the Ring has DTS ES, which is 6.1 speaker DTS.
I only have 5.1. I'd like to know...is the middle rear ES channel
simply dropped, or is it matrixed to the rear two speakers? When
listening to both tracks, it feels like some of the sound is missing
from the DTS version, making me suspect that part of the sound is
dropped, but I'm not sure if that's true or if it's just all in my
head.

--
Chris Meadows aka | If this post helped or entertained you, please rate
Robotech_Master | it at http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=robotech
robotech@eyrie.org |
| Homepage: http://www.eyrie.org/~robotech

Re: DTS ES on 5.1 speaker question
 

"Robotech_Master" <robotech@eyrie.org> wrote
> However, Fellowship of the Ring has DTS ES, which is 6.1 speaker DTS.
> I only have 5.1. I'd like to know...is the middle rear ES channel
> simply dropped, or is it matrixed to the rear two speakers?

The DTS 6.1 ES is a discrete separate channel, which
means yes it is dropped when output by a 5.1 system.
However, it's doubtful that the discrete back center
channel has any sound that isn't also in either the
back right or left channels. So basically, when
listening to it, you're hearing a standard DTS 5.1 mix.

I've listened to both EE DVDs on my 5.1 system,
and the DTS sounds great to my ears. Stop worrying
about what you might be "missing," which is nothing
besides an extra back channel, and just enjoy the
movie. And hey, if the DD5.1EX track sounds better
to you, listen to that.

-Jay

Re: DTS ES on 5.1 speaker question
 

"Jay G" <Jay@tmbg.org> wrote in message
news:vt5eso19kaidac@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "Robotech_Master" <robotech@eyrie.org> wrote
> > However, Fellowship of the Ring has DTS ES, which is 6.1 speaker DTS.
> > I only have 5.1. I'd like to know...is the middle rear ES channel
> > simply dropped, or is it matrixed to the rear two speakers?
>
> The DTS 6.1 ES is a discrete separate channel, which
> means yes it is dropped when output by a 5.1 system.
> However, it's doubtful that the discrete back center
> channel has any sound that isn't also in either the
> back right or left channels. So basically, when
> listening to it, you're hearing a standard DTS 5.1 mix.
>
> I've listened to both EE DVDs on my 5.1 system,
> and the DTS sounds great to my ears. Stop worrying
> about what you might be "missing," which is nothing
> besides an extra back channel, and just enjoy the
> movie. And hey, if the DD5.1EX track sounds better
> to you, listen to that.
>
> -Jay
>
>
Well, some of this is true.. but some of this is incorrect. (sorry)

There are two types of DTS ES mixes..

1) DTS ES "Discrete" 6.1

In this case on Fellowship, yes it's a discrete ES 6.1 mix.. but, IF your
reciever will only decode a DTS 5.1 mix, (i.e. your reciever doesn't have
the ES option) then the code in the DTS stream will automatically put the
center surround into the left and right surround channels.. even if the mix
was encoded as a discrete 6.1.

Remember, a DTS 6.1 ES Discrete mix really was encoded at the same data rate
as a regular 5.1, the difference is that the center surround channel is
embedded into the existing other channels.. then when a decoder is set up
for ES and it sees the ES flag, it knows to seperate that center surround
channel by itself to your center surround output. (this is one of the
coolest things about DTS)

2) DTS ES "Matrixed" 6.1

Not many people realize that an ES "Matrixed" mix is actually very similar
to a "Surround EX" mix.. like Dolby EX. (i.e. using the same +40/-40 degree
phase shifting etc..) which in this case, the center surround channel is
matrixed into the left and right surrounds. it's a phase game, when it's
decoded, it's not a perfect 6.1 like a "discrete" mix is of course.

So, in a nutshell, whether you're listening to a ES discrete OR matrixed -
if your reciever only has a basic DTS 5.1 decoder, it will let that center
surround channel come through - but now it is spread across into the left
and right surround channels. DTS has written the code so that it's just not
simply going to delete that center channel if you're only using a basic DTS
5.1 decoder.. They did a pretty cool job of keeping that in check.

Oh, and one more thing.. in the previous post, it was written:

> However, it's doubtful that the discrete back center
> channel has any sound that isn't also in either the
> back right or left channels. So basically, when
> listening to it, you're hearing a standard DTS 5.1 mix.

This really isn't accurate, I don't know for sure about Fellowship, but I
know that most films that are re-created into 6.1, they're usually mixed
from seperate dialog, music & effects elements (called stems). I have heard
films that will - for example in some scenes - only mix music into the left
and right surround, and then place some important hard effects into the
center surround channel only. They did this in mind that it would certainly
never be dropped out of the mix.

S. Peach

Re: DTS ES on 5.1 speaker question
 

"Robotech_Master" <robotech@eyrie.org> wrote in message
news:slrnbt5e11.cvr.robotech@terrania.homelinux.or g...
> In regards to the Fellowship of the Ring 4-disc DVD set...
>
> I have a Logitech 5.1 speaker set plugged into my computer, and
> PowerDVD (which can decode DTS) on the computer. It seems to work
> fine for standard DTS movies...
>
> However, Fellowship of the Ring has DTS ES, which is 6.1 speaker DTS.
> I only have 5.1. I'd like to know...is the middle rear ES channel
> simply dropped, or is it matrixed to the rear two speakers? When
> listening to both tracks, it feels like some of the sound is missing
> from the DTS version, making me suspect that part of the sound is
> dropped, but I'm not sure if that's true or if it's just all in my
> head.

From www.dtsonline.com:

"Any DTS-ES track is fully compatible with 5.1 decoders because the center
surround channel information is matrixed into the LS and RS channels and
will be heard in and between the LS and RS speakers."

To clarify -- The center surround is always matrixed into the surround left
and right. Sometimes there is *also* a discrete center surround channel, but
the matrixed one is still there.

A 6.1 decoder will extract the matrixed CS channel and route it to the CS
speaker, unless there is a discrete CS channel. In that case, the matrixed
one is extracted and dropped and the discrete one is used.

So no, you're not losing anything with a 5.1 system.

RichC

Re: DTS ES on 5.1 speaker question
 

"S Peach" <tinasunshine@earthlink.net> wrote
> >
> Well, some of this is true.. but some of this is incorrect. (sorry)

No need to apologize when correcting mistakes.

> There are two types of DTS ES mixes..
>
> 1) DTS ES "Discrete" 6.1
> 2) DTS ES "Matrixed" 6.1

My mistake, I thought "ES" referred specifically
to the discrete DTS 6.1.

I found a good page explaining DTS 6.1 ES. Oddly
enough, it's from the DTS website:
http://www.dtstech.com/technology/at...?ID=1857247944

> > However, it's doubtful that the discrete back center
> > channel has any sound that isn't also in either the
> > back right or left channels. So basically, when
> > listening to it, you're hearing a standard DTS 5.1 mix.
>
> This really isn't accurate, I don't know for sure about Fellowship, but I
> know that most films that are re-created into 6.1, they're usually mixed
> from seperate dialog, music & effects elements (called stems). I have
heard
> films that will - for example in some scenes - only mix music into the
left
> and right surround, and then place some important hard effects into the
> center surround channel only. They did this in mind that it would
certainly
> never be dropped out of the mix.

Rich and the DTS website point out that the rear center channel is *always*
matrixed into the rear right and left channels, even if there is a separate
discrete center channel as well. So on a 6.1 system, the rear center
channel has distinct sounds, but on a 5.1 system those sounds are mixed
into the rear left and right channels. So you're missing no sounds when
listening to a DTS 6.1 ES track in 5.1.

I find it interesting that DTS 6.1 ES Discrete tracks utilize both discrete
*and* matrixed rear center channels. It seems like this would cause some
"bleed through" of the rear center audio into the rear L&R channels,
even when the discrete rear center track is used. It's probably the best
they could do while staying backwards compatible.

-Jay

Re: DTS ES on 5.1 speaker question
 

On Sun, 7 Dec 2003 10:06:10 -0600, Jay G <Jay@tmbg.org> wrote:

> Rich and the DTS website point out that the rear center channel is
> *always* matrixed into the rear right and left channels, even if
> there is a separate discrete center channel as well.

I'd like to thank everyone who chimed in about the messages in this
thread. I understand how the system works a lot better now; thank you
all very much.
--
Chris Meadows aka | If this post helped or entertained you, please rate
Robotech_Master | it at http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=robotech
robotech@eyrie.org |
| Homepage: http://www.eyrie.org/~robotech

Re: DTS ES on 5.1 speaker question
 

"Jay G" <Jay@tmbg.org> wrote in message
news:vt6jttco04k1f9@corp.supernews.com...

> I find it interesting that DTS 6.1 ES Discrete tracks utilize both
discrete
> *and* matrixed rear center channels. It seems like this would cause some
> "bleed through" of the rear center audio into the rear L&R channels,
> even when the discrete rear center track is used. It's probably the best
> they could do while staying backwards compatible.

And in practice there's no really audible effect of this; any imperfection
in the "subtraction" of the matrixed CS signal is masked by the presence of
the discrete one. It's a heckuvalot better than introducing yet another
incompatible format.

RichC