Velocity Reviews

Velocity Reviews (http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/index.php)
-   Digital Photography (http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/f37-digital-photography.html)
-   -   D70 Raw Ain't? (http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/t260559-d70-raw-aint.html)

Dane Brickman 07-20-2004 02:27 AM

D70 Raw Ain't?
 
I read on the net today that the Nikon version of raw isn't really, and then
the article got into a lot of stuff that was basically over my head as to
the ramifications.

So the question, is this just another ****ing contest, or does the lack of a
"real" raw have any substantial practical ramifications for folks
considering this camera for the purpose of making pictures as opposed to
earning a degree in engineering?

Thanks



Jeremy Nixon 07-20-2004 03:57 AM

Re: D70 Raw Ain't?
 
Dane Brickman <woof@spmmno.net> wrote:

> So the question, is this just another ****ing contest, or does the lack of a
> "real" raw have any substantial practical ramifications for folks
> considering this camera for the purpose of making pictures as opposed to
> earning a degree in engineering?


The D70 offers only compressed RAW, which is described (by Nikon) as being
visually lossless, but mathematically lossy. There is no indication of
just what is being lost, but the basic idea is that you can't get back to
the uncompressed RAW exactly from the compressed RAW, but Nikon says it
doesn't matter. I can't see how it matters, having just shot well over
a thousand pictures with a D70 in two weeks, all in RAW, and being rather
extremely pleased with the results -- not to mention the quickness of the
compressed RAW mode (you'll never even notice it writing out the images
unless maybe you're a sports shooter or something).

--
Jeremy | jeremy@exit109.com

Tom Scales 07-20-2004 11:01 AM

Re: D70 Raw Ain't?
 
Nikon's website actually calls it LOSSLESS, not virtually lossy. I've only
seen anecdotes to the effect that it is lossy.

Storage System: Compressed NEF (RAW): 12-bit lossless compression

http://www.nikonusa.com/template.php...roductNr=25214

Tom
"Jeremy Nixon" <jeremy@exit109.com> wrote in message
news:10fp6133i14e9e6@corp.supernews.com...
> Dane Brickman <woof@spmmno.net> wrote:
>
> > So the question, is this just another ****ing contest, or does the lack

of a
> > "real" raw have any substantial practical ramifications for folks
> > considering this camera for the purpose of making pictures as opposed to
> > earning a degree in engineering?

>
> The D70 offers only compressed RAW, which is described (by Nikon) as being
> visually lossless, but mathematically lossy. There is no indication of
> just what is being lost, but the basic idea is that you can't get back to
> the uncompressed RAW exactly from the compressed RAW, but Nikon says it
> doesn't matter. I can't see how it matters, having just shot well over
> a thousand pictures with a D70 in two weeks, all in RAW, and being rather
> extremely pleased with the results -- not to mention the quickness of the
> compressed RAW mode (you'll never even notice it writing out the images
> unless maybe you're a sports shooter or something).
>
> --
> Jeremy | jeremy@exit109.com




E. Magnuson 07-20-2004 12:11 PM

Re: D70 Raw Ain't?
 
On 2004-07-20, Tom Scales <tomtoo@softhome.net> wrote:
> Nikon's website actually calls it LOSSLESS, not virtually lossy. I've only
> seen anecdotes to the effect that it is lossy.
>
> Storage System: Compressed NEF (RAW): 12-bit lossless compression



Nikon is playing a semantic marketing game here: Yes, the compression
algorithm itself is lossless. However before compression, the data is
mapped from 12-bit linear to 9-bit log data. You cannot get the exact
12-bit linear encoding back.

When they used this compression scheme on the D100, Nikon called it
"virtually lossless". No one has been able to find a technical reason
for Nikon to change the description. Some Nikonians feel the
compressed raw is inferior to the uncompressed raw.

http://www.majid.info/mylos/weblog/2004/05/02-1.html

--
Erik

Peter R Hobson 07-20-2004 02:55 PM

Re: D70 Raw Ain't?
 

> Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 12:11:33 GMT
> From: E. Magnuson <edjpgcom@yahoo.com>
> Newsgroups: rec.photo.digital
> Subject: Re: D70 Raw Ain't?
>
> On 2004-07-20, Tom Scales <tomtoo@softhome.net> wrote:
> > Nikon's website actually calls it LOSSLESS, not virtually lossy. I've only
> > seen anecdotes to the effect that it is lossy.
> >
> > Storage System: Compressed NEF (RAW): 12-bit lossless compression

>
>
> Nikon is playing a semantic marketing game here: Yes, the compression
> algorithm itself is lossless. However before compression, the data is
> mapped from 12-bit linear to 9-bit log data. You cannot get the exact
> 12-bit linear encoding back.
>
> When they used this compression scheme on the D100, Nikon called it
> "virtually lossless". No one has been able to find a technical reason
> for Nikon to change the description. Some Nikonians feel the
> compressed raw is inferior to the uncompressed raw.
>
> http://www.majid.info/mylos/weblog/2004/05/02-1.html
>
> --
> Erik
>


See also the discussion of RAW (and how to get "true raw") from a D70 at
Christian Buils site:

http://www.astrosurf.com/buil/d70v10d/eval.htm

Dr Peter R Hobson


eawckyegcy@yahoo.com 07-20-2004 04:46 PM

Re: D70 Raw Ain't?
 
"Dane Brickman" <woof@spmmno.net> wrote:

> I read on the net today that the Nikon version of raw isn't really, and then
> the article got into a lot of stuff that was basically over my head as to
> the ramifications.


I read on the net today that Dane Brickman is an intellectual lazy-ass
that can't even bother himself to post an URL or other usable
reference to what he merely _claims_ to have read about the Nikon
D70's raw format.

But whether he made it up or not, it turns out to be true anyways:

http://astrosurf.com/buil/d70v10d/eval.htm

> So the question, is this just another ****ing contest, or does the lack of a
> "real" raw have any substantial practical ramifications for folks
> considering this camera for the purpose of making pictures as opposed to
> earning a degree in engineering?


It is always amusing when the art-freaks or their breathless
sycophants are reduced to anti-intellectual sneering at the engineers
who design and build the hardware these self-same artistes use to
create their "art" (cough!). Kinda like poking fun at farmers for
growing your food, the city for providing clean water to drink and
bathe in, and dogs that bite the hands of their owners...

Jeremy Nixon 07-20-2004 06:33 PM

Re: D70 Raw Ain't?
 
Tom Scales <tomtoo@softhome.net> wrote:

> Nikon's website actually calls it LOSSLESS, not virtually lossy. I've only
> seen anecdotes to the effect that it is lossy.
>
> Storage System: Compressed NEF (RAW): 12-bit lossless compression


The compression is lossless, but the compressed NEFs aren't lossless with
regard to the original RAW data.

But the real point is whether it matters. In theory, it could indeed matter,
since there has to be some highlight detail lost in the process; in practice,
I haven't seen it matter yet. The compressed RAW files from the D70 seem to
be very nice, and from my (quick) testing, have a usable dynamic range of
about 7 stops (with some noise in the darkest one), which I think is just
fine. So the bottom line is that I'm not planning to worry about it until
I see it affecting pictures.

--
Jeremy | jeremy@exit109.com

Helge Nareid 07-20-2004 10:05 PM

Re: D70 Raw Ain't?
 
On Tue, 20 Jul 2004 15:55:53 +0100, Peter R Hobson
<eestprh@brunel.ac.uk> wrote:

[...snip...]
>
>See also the discussion of RAW (and how to get "true raw") from a D70 at
>Christian Buils site:
>
>http://www.astrosurf.com/buil/d70v10d/eval.htm
>
>Dr Peter R Hobson


Thank you very much for that, Peter! Most informative.

I've recently purchased a D70, and besides normal photography you can
probably guess what other use I want to put it to - hence my interest
in a true RAW format.

--
- Helge Nareid
Nordmann i utlendighet, Aberdeen, Scotland
For e-mail, please use my initials with the same domain as the posted address

dslrlover 07-24-2004 05:39 AM

Re: D70 Raw Ain't?
 
On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 22:27:59 -0400, "Dane Brickman" <woof@spmmno.net>
wrote:

>I read on the net today that the Nikon version of raw isn't really, and then
>the article got into a lot of stuff that was basically over my head as to
>the ramifications.
>
>So the question, is this just another ****ing contest, or does the lack of a
>"real" raw have any substantial practical ramifications for folks
>considering this camera for the purpose of making pictures as opposed to
>earning a degree in engineering?
>
>Thanks
>


In the D100 group on Yahoo there was a lengthy discussion of this very
topic. One explanation proferred was that enough bits were kept on the
D70 to generate 16 million colors and that this was the most that a
human eye cam discern. Hence the claim "lossless".

Georgette Preddy 07-24-2004 02:37 PM

Re: D70 Raw Ain't?
 
dslrlover <dslrlover@netscape.nett> wrote in message news:<qat3g0t3dpmgonv51apl4gqa5m5a2s86qj@4ax.com>. ..

> >So the question, is this just another ****ing contest, or does the lack of a
> >"real" raw have any substantial practical ramifications for folks
> >considering this camera for the purpose of making pictures as opposed to
> >earning a degree in engineering?
> >
> >Thanks

>
> In the D100 group on Yahoo there was a lengthy discussion of this very
> topic. One explanation proferred was that enough bits were kept on the
> D70 to generate 16 million colors and that this was the most that a
> human eye cam discern. Hence the claim "lossless".


256 shades per color channel is the most a human eye can distinguish??
Think again. If you are happy in the slightest with Nikon RAW or the
supplied software (or the ridiculously expensive full version) there
is only one reason: you haven't taken the 2 minutes required to
install and play with this...

http://www.sigmaphoto.com/html/pages...loads_spp2.htm
http://www.sigmaphoto.com/Images/sd9samples/Woman.X3F

If you really do that, your D70 will meet ebay by sundown.


All times are GMT. The time now is 04:43 PM.

Powered by vBulletin®. Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO ©2010, Crawlability, Inc.