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john 07-18-2004 11:40 PM

D70 on-camera sharpening vs. Photoshop sharpening
 
Hi folks,

I've had the D70 for a little while now, and I'm starting to explore more of
the features. One of these is the "Sharper" setting in the "Optimize Image"
menu.

Before I launch into a mini-research project (ie. trial-and-error), is there
any obvious reason why I would or wouldn't use this feature, as opposed to
the shooting with the default settings and then using the "Sharpen" feature
in Photoshop Elements?

Thanks!
J



Bill Hilton 07-19-2004 12:04 AM

Re: D70 on-camera sharpening vs. Photoshop sharpening
 
>From: "john" john@smith.com
>
>I've had the D70 for a little while now, and I'm starting to explore more of
>the features. One of these is the "Sharper" setting in the "Optimize Image"
>menu.
>
>Before I launch into a mini-research project (ie. trial-and-error), is there
>any obvious reason why I would or wouldn't use this feature, as opposed to
>the shooting with the default settings and then using the "Sharpen" feature
>in Photoshop Elements?


Many experienced users prefer waiting to sharpen late in the flow because you
need different amounts of sharpening depending on the output file size. That
is, if you are resizing down for the web you want to do final sharpening after
resizing, of if you have to resize up for printing large you would typically
want to wait until you have the final size.

If you are happy with the file size (ie pixel dimensions) it doesn't matter
much, except of course if you've oversharpened in-camera you can't undo it.

Since the unsharpened files right out of the camera are often a bit soft it's
becoming more popular to sharpen A LITTLE in-camera and do a final more
aggessive sharpening at the end of the flow. For example a RAW converter I use
has defaults of Amt = 34 and Threshold = 3 with a weak radius (undefined),
which is very light sharpening for large files so you don't get any artifacts.

So there is no *one right way* to do it, except you want to avoid
over-sharpening in-camera since you can't reverse it.

Bill

Dave Martindale 07-19-2004 04:14 AM

Re: D70 on-camera sharpening vs. Photoshop sharpening
 
"john" <john@smith.com> writes:

>Before I launch into a mini-research project (ie. trial-and-error), is there
>any obvious reason why I would or wouldn't use this feature, as opposed to
>the shooting with the default settings and then using the "Sharpen" feature
>in Photoshop Elements?


First, you probably shouldn't use Sharpen in Elements. Photoshop's
Sharpen filter has a fixed effect, and it's not ideal for most
circumstances. It's generally too extreme. You should be using Unsharp
Mask instead. Unsharp Mask has 3 settings that control its operation,
and it takes a bit of time to learn to use well, but with much more
control you can get much better results.

Having said that, you shouldn't use in-camera sharpening because

1) sharpening is usually best done *after* all other processing, not
before

2) Unsharp Mask is better than any fixed sharpening scheme.

Dave

B.A.S. 07-19-2004 04:42 PM

Re: D70 on-camera sharpening vs. Photoshop sharpening
 
Bill Hilton wrote:

>>From: "john" john@smith.com
>>
>>I've had the D70 for a little while now, and I'm starting to explore more of
>>the features. One of these is the "Sharper" setting in the "Optimize Image"
>>menu.
>>
>>Before I launch into a mini-research project (ie. trial-and-error), is there
>>any obvious reason why I would or wouldn't use this feature, as opposed to
>>the shooting with the default settings and then using the "Sharpen" feature
>>in Photoshop Elements?

>
>
> Many experienced users prefer waiting to sharpen late in the flow because you
> need different amounts of sharpening depending on the output file size. That
> is, if you are resizing down for the web you want to do final sharpening after
> resizing, of if you have to resize up for printing large you would typically
> want to wait until you have the final size.
>
> If you are happy with the file size (ie pixel dimensions) it doesn't matter
> much, except of course if you've oversharpened in-camera you can't undo it.


Not true on a D70 if you shoot NEF. You can remove the sharpening later
if desired in Nikon Capture (and probably in PS too? I don't have a
modern version of PS and haven't tried its NEF capabilities yet).

I shoot NEF + JPG, with medium sharpening in-camera. For quick and dirty
viewing and test (4x6) prints with no postprocessing, I use the JPG's.
It's nice having them 'pre-sharpened' for evaluation.

For keeper images, and especially those I will be making large prints
from, I go into Nikon Capture with the NEF image file, remove the
sharpening, and edit and tweak as appropriate. Then I sharpen as my last
step, with Unsharp Mask.

Just my 2 cents,

B.A.S.

P.S. This workflow may change if and when I ever get around to buying PS CS.


JPS@no.komm 07-20-2004 01:00 AM

Re: D70 on-camera sharpening vs. Photoshop sharpening
 
In message <cdfhr9$n05$1@mughi.cs.ubc.ca>,
davem@cs.ubc.ca (Dave Martindale) wrote:

>Having said that, you shouldn't use in-camera sharpening because
>
>1) sharpening is usually best done *after* all other processing, not
>before
>
>2) Unsharp Mask is better than any fixed sharpening scheme.


How about equalizers working in the frequency domain?

Kai's Power Tools has one in an old version, but the highest frequency
is 1 pixel and the bands are all powers of two; not very flexible.
--

<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
John P Sheehy <JPS@no.komm>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><


nikki 07-20-2004 09:20 AM

Re: D70 on-camera sharpening vs. Photoshop sharpening
 
"john" <john@smith.com> writes:

>Before I launch into a mini-research project (ie. trial-and-error),

is there
>any obvious reason why I would or wouldn't use this feature, as

opposed to
>the shooting with the default settings and then using the "Sharpen"

feature
>in Photoshop Elements?


Other than the suggestion that Elements has a fixed sharpening and
that don't sound good, definitelty do your own testing. It's so easy
and fast to do a digital test, there is no reason not to. You will
learn something new, even if it's only how to do a test properly.
nikki

eawckyegcy@yahoo.com 07-20-2004 05:09 PM

Re: D70 on-camera sharpening vs. Photoshop sharpening
 
davem@cs.ubc.ca (Dave Martindale) wrote:

> 1) sharpening is usually best done *after* all other processing, not
> before


I've tried it and I can tell much of a difference between
unsharp-first vs. unsharp last. First order approximation is that
image operations are linear, so order isn't much important. What am I
missing?

> 2) Unsharp Mask is better than any fixed sharpening scheme.


Curiously, when I added a sharpen function to my image stacking
program (I wanted to work directly against the linear floating point
data post-stack), I found that the simple laplacian sharpen did a much
better job than a classic gaussian unsharp mask, at least for pictures
of the Moon and the like. Maybe I missed the magic parameters...

Bart van der Wolf 07-20-2004 07:17 PM

Re: D70 on-camera sharpening vs. Photoshop sharpening
 

<eawckyegcy@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:d3c57e81.0407200909.25202c68@posting.google.c om...
> davem@cs.ubc.ca (Dave Martindale) wrote:
>
> > 1) sharpening is usually best done *after* all other processing,

not
> > before

>
> I've tried it and I can tell much of a difference between
> unsharp-first vs. unsharp last. First order approximation is that
> image operations are linear, so order isn't much important. What am

I
> missing?


e.g. Sharpening before noise suppression will enhance noise.
Sharpening before downsizing will increase aliasing. Sharpening before
upsizing will increase blockiness.

> > 2) Unsharp Mask is better than any fixed sharpening scheme.

>
> Curiously, when I added a sharpen function to my image stacking
> program (I wanted to work directly against the linear floating point
> data post-stack), I found that the simple laplacian sharpen did a

much
> better job than a classic gaussian unsharp mask, at least for

pictures
> of the Moon and the like. Maybe I missed the magic parameters...


e.g. A simple Laplacian kernel sharpening will sharpen noise, an USM
threshold allows to avoid some of that. A simple sharpening has a
fixed support, USM has variable support.

Bart


andrew29@littlepinkcloud.invalid 07-23-2004 09:55 AM

Re: D70 on-camera sharpening vs. Photoshop sharpening
 
Dave Martindale <davem@cs.ubc.ca> wrote:
> you shouldn't use in-camera sharpening because


> 1) sharpening is usually best done *after* all other processing, not
> before


> 2) Unsharp Mask is better than any fixed sharpening scheme.


I mostly agree, but there is one thing to be said for sharpening
before JPEG encoding: it doesn't accentuate JPEG artefacts, which
later sharpening does.

Andrew.

Gisle Hannemyr 07-28-2004 09:23 AM

Re: D70 on-camera sharpening vs. Photoshop sharpening
 
"B.A.S." <bubbasREMOVETHIS@nc.rr.com> writes:
> Bill Hilton wrote:


>> of course if you've oversharpened in-camera you can't undo it.


> Not true on a D70 if you shoot NEF. You can remove the sharpening
> later if desired in Nikon Capture (and probably in PS too? I don't
> have a modern version of PS and haven't tried its NEF capabilities
> yet).


In that case, the NEF isn't really sharpened in-camera.
Sharpening is lossy and it is also a one-way street.
You can't «undo» sharpening with software.

What probably happens is this: The D70 do nothing to the NEF
in-camera, but pass your in-camera sharpening /setting/ (along with
the pristine sensor readings) on to Nikon Capture - where it is
applied by default. NC then saves a copy of the original data
(i.e. before sharpening), so the "remove sharpening" feature is really
just going back to use the pristine copy of original data.

Nice feature tho'
--
- gisle hannemyr [ gisle{at}hannemyr.no - http://folk.uio.no/gisle/ ]
================================================== ======================
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