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-   -   Re: where can i get IE for os x? (http://www.velocityreviews.com/forums/t164921-re-where-can-i-get-ie-for-os-x.html)

Bruce Grubb 04-25-2006 05:07 AM

Re: where can i get IE for os x?
 
In article
<doraymeRidThis-B1D01A.08100024042006@news-vip.optusnet.com.au>,
dorayme <doraymeRidThis@optusnet.com.au> wrote:

> In article <bgrubb-902DBB.20065322042006@news.zianet.com>,
> Bruce Grubb <bgrubb@zianet.com> wrote:
>
> > In article
> > <doraymeRidThis-D50D8D.11095722042006@news-vip.optusnet.com.au>,
> > dorayme <doraymeRidThis@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
> >
> > > In article <bgrubb-1F1D55.10192421042006@news.zianet.com>,
> > > Bruce Grubb <bgrubb@zianet.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > In article
> > > > <doraymeRidThis-705794.11495819042006@news-vip.optusnet.com.au>,
> > > > dorayme <doraymeRidThis@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > In article <QUf1g.8657$3W1.3933@tornado.socal.rr.com>,
> > > > > Phil Wheeler <w6tuh-ng7@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > >

> (I snipped so much I have lost the quote count...)
>
> > > dorayme wrote:

>
> > > You are still missing the point. You need to get the point before
> > > your hello bit can be effective. I will repeat the point:
> > >
> > > Most people use IE in spite of it not being the best.

> >
> > Irrelevant and questionable at best. Also the trends suggest that IE is on
> > the decline with Gecko-Based Browsers taking the lion's share of the 11%
> > marketshare IE has lost.

>
> How can this be irrelevant to the question of a website maker
> wanting to ensure that the majority of his viewers have as best
> an experience as they can in IE.


If you write to the standard then IE should have no problems. We are having
this same little talk over at alt.html in the "Which browser to write
for??" thread.

Some relevant points from that thread:

----

In article <1145632828.786351.62410@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups. com>,
"Andy Dingley" <dingbat@codesmiths.com> wrote:

Bill wrote:
> Here's the kicker, should I be designing the default page for IE 6 or
> something else?


Just don't do that at all. Design for the standard, not for this week's
fashionable browser bugs. There's one standard, it's objective.
Browser bugs always outnumber you, you'll never get on top of them.

----

In article <e2ar2u$kjb$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk>,
David Dorward <dorward@yahoo.com> wrote:

The general concensus (and my experience) seems to be that it is easier to
write for Firefox (or possibly Opera, Safari or Konqueror) then make
adjustments to deal with other browsers.

---

The main thing to remember about HTML is it is not about look and layout
NEVER has been NEVER will be. It is about identifying the parts of a
document; ie what is a list, what is a header, what is a link, so on and so
forth.


> I think I have your measure now,
> Bruce, you will reply with something irrelevant like that no one
> can have a good experience with IE.


IE was the browser I used on the Mac for years because Netscape 2.0
corrupted the b-tree like crazy and Netscape 3.0+ were bloated
monstrosities. I also so used ICab to see if the web site was using poor
HTML.


> You will keep on missing the
> point about the wiseness of a website maker to minimise the
> damage.


WHAT YOU THINK THE STANDARD IS FOR???? SHEESH.

> > > In fact, IE is very naughty about standards.

> >
> > Actually I have yet to see any real example of a truly HTML 4.01 compliant
> > (and not just something that can 'trick' a validator) page that does
> > something totally idiotic under IE.

>
> Willing to put up some money in some escrow account for a bet on
> this?


Back in the "who uses virtual pc for testing webpages" thread in alt.html
and comp.infosystems.www.authoring some years back the only examples
people could provide fell into several categories:

1) Browser detection crap (javascript, java, etc)

2) Minor display hiccups (HTML is NOT a page layout format people)

3) NONstandard (ie broswer specific) garbage like conditional comments.

4) Purposely constructed scripts designed to cause problems.

In short the ONLY examples anyone at that time could come up with was
nonstandard crap.

> > > But most good website makers
> > > want folk to see their sites and so need to find out how their
> > > sites behave in IE so that they can put in counter measures.

> >
> > Write to the standard, end of problem.

>
> It is not the end of the problem.


Yes it is. It only by using nonstandard stuff, trying to use HTML in a way
it was NEVER designed for, or not doing KISS that you get into trouble.

dorayme 04-25-2006 05:38 AM

Re: where can i get IE for os x?
 
In article <bgrubb-C596CD.23072724042006@news.zianet.com>,
Bruce Grubb <bgrubb@zianet.com> wrote:

> If you write to the standard then IE should have no problems.


This is, once again, not correct. I do not know that you will
ever see this after what has been said.

>We are having
> this same little talk over at alt.html in the "Which browser to write
> for??" thread.
>


You seem quite confused. This is alt.html.

--
dorayme

dorayme 04-25-2006 05:45 AM

Re: where can i get IE for os x?
 
In article
<doraymeRidThis-F13584.15381125042006@news-vip.optusnet.com.au>,
dorayme <doraymeRidThis@optusnet.com.au> wrote:

> In article <bgrubb-C596CD.23072724042006@news.zianet.com>,
> Bruce Grubb <bgrubb@zianet.com> wrote:
>
> > If you write to the standard then IE should have no problems.

>
> This is, once again, not correct. I do not know that you will
> ever see this after what has been said.
>
> >We are having
> > this same little talk over at alt.html in the "Which browser to write
> > for??" thread.
> >

>
> You seem quite confused. This is alt.html.


No! Now I am confused! I made a mistake. You are posting all over
the show, even to alt.html. Would you please stop confusing me?
Why don't you do a bit of trimming to cater for poor ordinary
folk like me.

My remarks are still true about IE. You are confusing the order
in which a website maker should do things. The discussion at
alt.html is mainly about that. You seem to take the absurd
position that all one needs to worry about is The Standards (W3C
presumably).

--
dorayme

Dave Hinz 04-25-2006 01:52 PM

Re: where can i get IE for os x?
 
On Tue, 25 Apr 2006 15:38:11 +1000, dorayme <doraymeRidThis@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
> In article <bgrubb-C596CD.23072724042006@news.zianet.com>,
> Bruce Grubb <bgrubb@zianet.com> wrote:
>
>> If you write to the standard then IE should have no problems.


> This is, once again, not correct. I do not know that you will
> ever see this after what has been said.


Here, let me try. IE can render standard HTML adequately. Other
browsers also will render standard HTML adequately. If you code to the
specific rendering errors that IE has, you will be writing broken HTML
which will be broken on any browser that isn't broken.

You have to go out of your way to limit your audience to IE. Why not do
it the easy way, which also gives you the most portability?


Bruce Grubb 04-25-2006 05:23 PM

Re: where can i get IE for os x?
 
In article
<doraymeRidThis-F13584.15381125042006@news-vip.optusnet.com.au>,
dorayme <doraymeRidThis@optusnet.com.au> wrote:

> In article <bgrubb-C596CD.23072724042006@news.zianet.com>,
> Bruce Grubb <bgrubb@zianet.com> wrote:
>
> > If you write to the standard then IE should have no problems.

>
> This is, once again, not correct. I do not know that you will
> ever see this after what has been said.
>
> >We are having
> > this same little talk over at alt.html in the "Which browser to write
> > for??" thread.
> >

>
> You seem quite confused. This is alt.html.


I just added that to the newgroup list Oh Wise one. SHEESH.

Bruce Grubb 04-25-2006 05:43 PM

Re: where can i get IE for os x?
 
In article <4b6nskFvsorvU1@individual.net>,
Dave Hinz <DaveHinz@spamcop.net> wrote:

> On Tue, 25 Apr 2006 15:38:11 +1000, dorayme <doraymeRidThis@optusnet.com.au>
> wrote:
> > In article <bgrubb-C596CD.23072724042006@news.zianet.com>,
> > Bruce Grubb <bgrubb@zianet.com> wrote:
> >
> >> If you write to the standard then IE should have no problems.

>
> > This is, once again, not correct. I do not know that you will
> > ever see this after what has been said.

>
> Here, let me try. IE can render standard HTML adequately. Other
> browsers also will render standard HTML adequately. If you code to the
> specific rendering errors that IE has, you will be writing broken HTML
> which will be broken on any browser that isn't broken.
>
> You have to go out of your way to limit your audience to IE. Why not do
> it the easy way, which also gives you the most portability?


Exactly the point. And besides you have to be doing some really obscure
stuff for IE to have serious problems. Going for the standard is the way
to go because as previous articles have pointed out HTMLing for version
x.0.1 of browser y can have problems if x.0.2 fixes the bug you just HTMLed
to.

The only sane thing is to HTML to the standard and keep away from as much
'gee wizardry' as you can and go KISS. While the
<http://www.positioniseverything.net/explorer.html> page shows some fun
bugs in IE you have to ask yourself 'In *realistic* web page design how
often will I really run into this?' Well if you are going KISS very little.

Dave Hinz 04-25-2006 05:55 PM

Re: where can i get IE for os x?
 
On Tue, 25 Apr 2006 11:43:06 -0600, Bruce Grubb <bgrubb@zianet.com> wrote:
> In article <4b6nskFvsorvU1@individual.net>,
> Dave Hinz <DaveHinz@spamcop.net> wrote:
>
>> Here, let me try. IE can render standard HTML adequately. Other
>> browsers also will render standard HTML adequately. If you code to the
>> specific rendering errors that IE has, you will be writing broken HTML
>> which will be broken on any browser that isn't broken.


> Exactly the point. And besides you have to be doing some really obscure
> stuff for IE to have serious problems. Going for the standard is the way
> to go because as previous articles have pointed out HTMLing for version
> x.0.1 of browser y can have problems if x.0.2 fixes the bug you just HTMLed
> to.


Exactly. Long ago, people learned that you don't break the good part to
fit the bad, you fix the bad one to work with the good one. Applies in
mechanical assemblies as much as it applies to electronic
communications.

> The only sane thing is to HTML to the standard and keep away from as much
> 'gee wizardry' as you can and go KISS. While the
><http://www.positioniseverything.net/explorer.html> page shows some fun
> bugs in IE


Heh. I wonder if Microsoft pays attention to that page. They should.
Talk about someone doing your homework for you and handing you a
repeatable testable problem statement.


Neredbojias 04-25-2006 06:58 PM

Re: where can i get IE for os x?
 
To further the education of mankind, Bruce Grubb <bgrubb@zianet.com>
vouchsafed:

> In article
> <doraymeRidThis-F13584.15381125042006@news-vip.optusnet.com.au>,
> dorayme <doraymeRidThis@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>
>> In article <bgrubb-C596CD.23072724042006@news.zianet.com>,
>> Bruce Grubb <bgrubb@zianet.com> wrote:
>>
>> > If you write to the standard then IE should have no problems.

>>
>> This is, once again, not correct. I do not know that you will
>> ever see this after what has been said.
>>
>> >We are having
>> > this same little talk over at alt.html in the "Which browser to write
>> > for??" thread.
>> >

>>
>> You seem quite confused. This is alt.html.

>
> I just added that to the newgroup list Oh Wise one. SHEESH.


Haha, she thinks she's a Martian, too!

--
Neredbojias
Infinity has its limits.

Bruce Grubb 04-25-2006 08:16 PM

Re: where can i get IE for os x?
 
In article <4b765cF106nqbU1@individual.net>,
Dave Hinz <DaveHinz@spamcop.net> wrote:

> On Tue, 25 Apr 2006 11:43:06 -0600, Bruce Grubb <bgrubb@zianet.com> wrote:
> > In article <4b6nskFvsorvU1@individual.net>,
> > Dave Hinz <DaveHinz@spamcop.net> wrote:
> >
> >> Here, let me try. IE can render standard HTML adequately. Other
> >> browsers also will render standard HTML adequately. If you code to the
> >> specific rendering errors that IE has, you will be writing broken HTML
> >> which will be broken on any browser that isn't broken.

>
> > Exactly the point. And besides you have to be doing some really obscure
> > stuff for IE to have serious problems. Going for the standard is the way
> > to go because as previous articles have pointed out HTMLing for version
> > x.0.1 of browser y can have problems if x.0.2 fixes the bug you just HTMLed
> > to.

>
> Exactly. Long ago, people learned that you don't break the good part to
> fit the bad, you fix the bad one to work with the good one. Applies in
> mechanical assemblies as much as it applies to electronic
> communications.
>
> > The only sane thing is to HTML to the standard and keep away from as much
> > 'gee wizardry' as you can and go KISS. While the
> ><http://www.positioniseverything.net/explorer.html> page shows some fun
> > bugs in IE

>
> Heh. I wonder if Microsoft pays attention to that page. They should.
> Talk about someone doing your homework for you and handing you a
> repeatable testable problem statement.


Mac users use to have this joke:

Q: How many Microsoft programers does it take to change a light bulb?

A: None. They declare darkness the new standard.

(which explains why most Windows users and programmers have been in the
dark for the last 15 years :-))

This quote from December 29, 2005 article
<http://www.emailbattles.com/archive/battles/browsers_aacehieihi_gd/>
about the end of IE for the MacOS suma up the problems:

"We haven't innovated in the browser for almost a decade." (Dare Obsasanjo:

A Jan 2006 article

<http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060102-5880.html> was just as
critical. More over it shows that for some PC FoxFire NOT IE will be the
default browser.

Worse yet a full 2 months before that Firefox had 14 percent market share
in the US and was rapid at the 1/5 market share in Canada. In Japan IE is
at 70% and dropping like a stone.

Face it unless you are totally blind (or *believe* darkness IS the new
standard) writing to IE is just plain stupid.

Mimic 04-25-2006 09:13 PM

Re: where can i get IE for os x?
 
Bruce Grubb wrote:
>
> If you write to the standard then IE should have no problems.


hehehe, so naive

--
Mimic

"I'd rather reign in Hell, than serve in Heaven".

[email: ZGF0YWZsZXhAY2FubmFiaXNtYWlsLmNvbQ==]
Help Stop Spam - www.hidemyemail.net

"I have come to realise that, only in death, will I find true perfection."


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